Is pure strength underrated in grappling?

[QingTian]

From my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience with bjj.

A significant strength advantage can easily put you on par with a guy a belt level higher (provided a guy gets a few basics down).

A freakish strength advantage can get you two belt levels.

I've seen similar results in wrestling, though (which is my background).

I think this is about right except when you are a white belt. But otherwise the belt gaps close and strength gaps open as you get experienced. Normally I'm about par with purples but I know that if I'm in shape I might even beat a recreational black.

 

[nefti]

There's this guy in my class who joined recently who also does olympic weightlifting and powerlifting and seen him brute force himself out of impossible situations and do submissions purely on strength and this is against guys who have been training way longer than him.

I know technique will beat strength and I doubt he can do those things against a purple belt (See early UFC when the Gracies easily dominated a lot of strongmen competitors) but does strength have a place?

I'm a brown belt, against guys you describe i don't use certain techniques/submissions because i have seen "strong guys" get seriously hurt because they don't use the correct escape and use strength. It may look like im "loosing" or having a "difficult time" but im simply being careful so my training partner does not hurt himself.

 

[Malthian]

The main reason that skill is so effective is that you are often exploiting leverage.

However, in terms of physics, leverage is purely a strength multiplier. IE, certain angles, fulcrums and positions will multiply the effective force of your existing strength.

What that means is that at some point it is possible for raw strength to exceed the strength multiplying advantages of leverage if your base strength isn't high enough.

Let's take a theoretical example...

Let's say you exert 100N of force on an opponent's limb. Without the leverage of technique they could overcome your technique with 101N. If you use technique to leverage your strength, you might exert 100N but output 400N. That would mean they would need to exert 401N to overcome your technique.

In the case of some techniques, the necessary amount of force to overcome that technique is so high that it would be beyond the physiological limitations of the human body assuming that your base strength is high enough. However, the lower your base strength the lower resulting force from the technique, and the lower the threshold of strength required to overcome the technique. At some point if your opponent is ridiculously strong and you are not sufficiently strong then even perfectly executed technique will be overcome.

It's like trying to execute a double leg take down. If your opponent is 500+ pounds in mass ala Andre the Giant, then even with leverage you may not have sufficient base strength to displace their balance and bring them to the ground. In that case the flaw is not in technique, but in your base level of strength.

In competitive terms, that means that strength is always a benefit but its benefit has differing levels of return relative to competition. The closer that you are to someone else in terms of level of technique, the more important marginal factors like speed, flexibility and strength become. The greater the gap in skill, the greater your athletic disadvantage can be.

 

[IRENICUS]

Since people talk about the first few UFCs.
Remember how well Kimo did vs Royce(+hair pulling) on mostly strength alone before getting tired despite the massive skill difference.

 

[lechien]

He can try to bench press me once i got the mount but I am not going anywhere without his arm.

 

[DrJitsu]

I struggle with this: Is it worth it to decrease jiu jitsu training hours in order to add strength training hours?

For reference, I'm a brand new blue belt and I've been told I'm strong for my size. I worry about sacrificing mat time for the weight room. I'd love to hear others' thoughts/experiences.

 

[NateTx4112]

Real question: were you really weak before?

Not really...but I ran into Jared Dopp at the Houston Open, one of my main training partners is Ryne Sandhagen (double silver medalist at Pan Am's Adult Purple belt Super HW). Just have run into some monsters and was completely outgunned strength (and athletically). So I'm working to correct that.

Plus who doesn't like having more muscles/being stronger/aesthetically pleasing to the eyes?

 

[NateTx4112]

I'd be interested to hear more about the flexibility and mobility works you've been doing. I've been working a lot on my shoulders and hips (mobility wise) for the last 6 weeks or so. I've definitely noticed an improvement in terms of pain and quality of life, but don't see it reaping huge dividends in terms of my game.

As far as strength goes - I find that there are three categories: (1) the very weak (2) most of the population and the (3) freakishly strong. Going from (1) to (2) isn't terribly hard if you do serious weight training, and can pay huge dividends.

Being in group (3) generally means you can completely overwhelm people from (1) or (2) with pure physicality. The mistake is most people haven't encountered anyone from group (3) - they mistake relatively strong people from group (2) as being members of group (3). Going from (2) to (3) is very difficult, and generally requires serious participation in a barbell sport (for years) or being a genetic abnormality.

When people run into group 3 for the first time it is an eye opener. When someone can dead lift 600+ lbs...normal technique from a group 2 person has to be Fucking ON POINT and you can't leave any gaps. Christ...it's amazing how strong some gorilla men can be.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I struggle with this: Is it worth it to decrease jiu jitsu training hours in order to add strength training hours?

For reference, I'm a brand new blue belt and I've been told I'm strong for my size. I worry about sacrificing mat time for the weight room. I'd love to hear others' thoughts/experiences.

No. Technique work first, Strength training second. I currently train twice a week in BJJ and Lift three times per week. If I could reverse that ratio, I would. But my work schedule means I can only make it to the Academy twice a week. So I might as well spend the extra time in the Gym.

 

[fanboysareevil]

I just asked because I see a lot of the time the opposite of what you described: gym rats reducing their S&C and increasing their BJJ and it paying off greatly. I also see pure BJJ guys adding S&C and it paying off, but I almost never see people reducing their BJJ to lift weights and liking the results.

I do know what you mean about technique needing to be on point against some people though. I greatly altered by bottom game after competing at purple at just a local comp with no weight divisions, and ran into some people I actually already knew, but were now using their full power on me. Long story short, I ended switched from a focus on situp DLR and closed guard to butterfly, Shin to shin, and a more "modern" DLR, which has worked well and seems to involve better "multipliers" in terms of strength.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Very underrated imo

 

[sb413197]

IMO - cardio is more important than strength, but strength is a big physical advantage too. Cardio will allow people to roll harder for longer and be more active, leading to greater skill development. Strength helps you to successfully execute the techniques you are attempting. So both are good.

 

[NateTx4112]

IMO - cardio is more important than strength, but strength is a big physical advantage too. Cardio will allow people to roll harder for longer and be more active, leading to greater skill development. Strength helps you to successfully execute the techniques you are attempting. So both are good.

*My opinion only*

Cardio can be gained in a matter of weeks if you train hard and suck it up/do some interval training. "Wind" is the easiest to gain (as well as lose - Take 2 weeks off...see how you feel. Strength takes longer term to develop. Yes both are great and needed to compete as well.

 

[DoMn8]

IMO - cardio is more important than strength, but strength is a big physical advantage too. Cardio will allow people to roll harder for longer and be more active, leading to greater skill development. Strength helps you to successfully execute the techniques you are attempting. So both are good.

I agree, most of the time that somebody I consider less skilled than me gets an advantadge, its down to my exhaustion rather than their strength.

 

[Uchi Mata]

No. Technique work first, Strength training second. I currently train twice a week in BJJ and Lift three times per week. If I could reverse that ratio, I would. But my work schedule means I can only make it to the Academy twice a week. So I might as well spend the extra time in the Gym.

This actually depends on your level. I think for beginners all technique is fine (assuming perfect substitution), but there are diminishing returns to all types of practice including BJJ training. Once you're a brown or black belt if you have the chance to train BJJ say 6-10 times a week then subbing 1-2 of those BJJ sessions for S&C is probably not a bad idea, at least until you establish a high baseline level of strength. Think about the top guys on the BJJ scene...I doubt most of them have a hard time finding training partners when they want them, but almost all of them do some S&C. To me this implies that they believe it's worth giving up a few BJJ sessions to work on their overall athleticism. That makes a lot of sense as they're already so technically good that they need to seek an edge elsewhere, or conversely that they realize that they're not technically superior to their strength training adversaries enough to make up for a significant gap in physicality.

This is not to say give up BJJ for powerlifting when you get your purple belt by any means. But at least exhausting your noob gains on something like SS or 5/3/1 is almost certainly a good idea for a competitive advanced grappler who has never lifted. Once you start hitting the point of diminishing returns on your S&C or your strength training starts detracting from your BJJ due to fatigue and/or gym time you can pull back to a maintenance schedule, but for any novice lifter you'll have made really big gains up until that point. I think most younger guys willing to do so mild diet modification (mostly upping protein intake) could go from never lifting to hitting Rippetoe's men's strength standards within a year or so. And if you don't think that going from being able to lift jack shit to squatting 1.5x BW, DL 2x BW, and bench 1x BW with additional overhead strength gains isn't going to help your practical results in BJJ a lot you're delusional.

 

[cjd]

[YT]hlJ46dfg88I[/YT]

Here's half of the first step of the Foundations 1 workout. I don't want to give away everything since I feel some loyalty to Coach Sommers after the things his program has done for me, but if you look around youtube you'll find the other half pretty easily.

You'll notice the Superman holds (arch body hold). Since this video was shot, the program has removed the Superman holds and inserted them later in the program. It's now something you work up to with baby steps. Most people do the Supermans by contracting their lower back, but in a proper gymnastic hold there is no lower back contraction. You flex your butt and have great hip mobility to get your feet high up in the air and flex your upper back and have great thoracic flexibility to get your hands and head high up in the air. I would be really surprised if anyone here could hold a Superman hold to a gymnasts standards for any amount of time. If you're contracting your lower back you're doing it wrong.

The mobility movements don't seem like much, but they get tough in a matter of inches. The scapular push-ups were never something I thought would cause me problems... until I found out how far in front of my body I need to push my shoulders at the top in order to make the standard. Same thing with the ski squat and the alternating knee touches and everything else.

And, yeah, you'll see the strength work is pretty wimpy, baby steps, but they don't let you advance until you get the mobility. In a forum post Coach Sommers told me that I shouldn't be having any popping or cracking sounds in my shoulder joints as I'm doing any of this and I wasn't sure if that was even possible, so I scaled it back to doing scapular push-ups against a wall and instead of table push-ups doing wall push-ups. I listened to some of his stuff on strengthening connective tissue and took my time and I worked up to the regular baby steps from my scaled back baby steps and now, even though I could probably advance to level 2 at any time, I'm still seeing so much progress in terms of strength, mobility and joint stability that I feel I could continue to milk these baby steps for some time to come.

The GB people use weights as they increase flexibility because their idea is to increase your range of motion and then increase your strength in that new range of motion.

Here's a vid of them doing reverse dislocates, it's probably a level 3 or 4 mobility movement. Dislocates those things you see people do with their gi belt or a long stick where they lift it above their head then lower it behind them until they touch the object to their butt. Typically people do it with their arms outstretched quite a distance. The GB people want you to be able to do it with your hands pretty close together before you move on.

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Here's a weighted pike stretch. I don't know what level it's at in the program.

[YT]TROCCITlBrE[/YT]

Here's an interview Coach Sommers did specifically regarding training tendon strength and connective tissue.

[YT]Dg2n9Dw9ABY[/YT]

This has been the best thing I've done. Between 1998 and 2013 I've tried bodybuilding, powerlifting, crossfit and kettlebells and this was what my body needed more than any other modality I've tried. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it was great for me.

I've done long write-ups on this in the past here and recently a member sent me a PM saying he got Foundations 1 on my recommendation and was really happy with how quickly he was seeing a transformation. He experienced the same thing I did: injuries disappearing and a kind of athleticism he thought was long gone.

Gold Medal Bodies and Kit Laughlin are other well-respected names in gymnastics training. I've got one of Kit's books, but I never did any of his or Gold Medal Bodies' programs so I can't really relate any experiences with them.

As I was looking through youtube it looks like Gymnastic Bodies posted daily workout videos for a handstand challenge. I don't know anything about it, but if you look at the videos you'll see exactly how they specifically target strength and flexibility for gymnastics. I also got the Handstand 1 course and a lot of it is increasing finger, wrist and forearm strength for controlling a freestanding handstand, which has had obvious carryover to gripping in BJJ. You might want to look into the Handstand Challenge they did. Again, I don't know anything about it, but it looks free and it does not look like they skimped on any of their training information. It might be a way for you to get a feel for what they do.

Wow - I really appreciate your response! What package do you recommend for a beginner?

 

[NateTx4112]

This actually depends on your level. I think for beginners all technique is fine (assuming perfect substitution), but there are diminishing returns to all types of practice including BJJ training. Once you're a brown or black belt if you have the chance to train BJJ say 6-10 times a week then subbing 1-2 of those BJJ sessions for S&C is probably not a bad idea, at least until you establish a high baseline level of strength. Think about the top guys on the BJJ scene...I doubt most of them have a hard time finding training partners when they want them, but almost all of them do some S&C. To me this implies that they believe it's worth giving up a few BJJ sessions to work on their overall athleticism. That makes a lot of sense as they're already so technically good that they need to seek an edge elsewhere, or conversely that they realize that they're not technically superior to their strength training adversaries enough to make up for a significant gap in physicality.

This is not to say give up BJJ for powerlifting when you get your purple belt by any means. But at least exhausting your noob gains on something like SS or 5/3/1 is almost certainly a good idea for a competitive advanced grappler who has never lifted. Once you start hitting the point of diminishing returns on your S&C or your strength training starts detracting from your BJJ due to fatigue and/or gym time you can pull back to a maintenance schedule, but for any novice lifter you'll have made really big gains up until that point. I think most younger guys willing to do so mild diet modification (mostly upping protein intake) could go from never lifting to hitting Rippetoe's men's strength standards within a year or so. And if you don't think that going from being able to lift jack shit to squatting 1.5x BW, DL 2x BW, and bench 1x BW with additional overhead strength gains isn't going to help your practical results in BJJ a lot you're delusional.

 

[cjd]

When people run into group 3 for the first time it is an eye opener. When someone can dead lift 600+ lbs...normal technique from a group 2 person has to be Fucking ON POINT and you can't leave any gaps. Christ...it's amazing how strong some gorilla men can be.

Bingo - I think most people haven't encountered someone from group 3, which is why they are so quick to discount strength. The strength level normal people achieve from a modest amount of "working out" doesn't confer an especially meaningful advantage... But having next level strength fundamentally changes the rules of engagement.

 

[NateTx4112]

Bingo - I think most people haven't encountered someone from group 3, which is why they are so quick to discount strength. The strength level normal people achieve from a modest amount of "working out" doesn't confer an especially meaningful advantage... But having next level strength fundamentally changes the rules of engagement.

We have a guy who runs bootcamp/S&C camps for a living. In great shape. Same weight, around the same time training but a decided strength (And cardio) advantage to him. One time I stacked him while he did and Armbar from guard and pull my arm out and had decent posture. He "rowed" me back into the armbar...

This was me as it was happening:

 

[thegreenblender]

Am I the only one who finds weight a bigger deal? Moderately strong lard ass with 0 technique >= relatively same size but significantly stronger with 0 technique...