Is pure strength underrated in grappling?

[Uchi Mata]

We have a guy who runs bootcamp/S&C camps for a living. In great shape. Same weight, around the same time training but a decided strength (And cardio) advantage to him. One time I stacked him while he did and Armbar from guard and pull my arm out and had decent posture. He "rowed" me back into the armbar...

This was me as it was happening:

I used to roll with a pro MMA fighter who had about a 650-700 lb deadlift (at 5'9" or so), just a beast of a man, and if I made single mistake I was done. If he managed to wrap you up in his half guard it was almost unpassable because he could just hold onto you so tightly. Multiple times I'd get his back and he would literally reach behind his head, grab my head or gi, and just slowly pull me over his back until I couldn't stay on. I was a blue with a few stripes at the time, I doubt it would work now, but it taught me an important lesson: technical superiority only matters relative to physical superiority. We all know this in the sense that no one thinks they could arm bar a gorilla, but we when you transfer it to gorilla like men all of sudden technique will overcome all. Not so much.

Of course, the problem for these guys is they reach a point where the technique is too much for them or they meet someone who is strong enough (maybe just a 500 DL ) to handle their power, and they have no answer. My buddy is decent at BJJ, but he still lost his TUF 'get into the house' fight by kimura against a D1 wrestler who I guarantee you wasn't as strong as him but was strong enough and a better enough grappler than beasting out wasn't an option. More time on the mat and less in the gym might have saved him.

 

[KnightTemplar]

This actually depends on your level. I think for beginners all technique is fine (assuming perfect substitution), but there are diminishing returns to all types of practice including BJJ training. Once you're a brown or black belt if you have the chance to train BJJ say 6-10 times a week then subbing 1-2 of those BJJ sessions for S&C is probably not a bad idea, at least until you establish a high baseline level of strength. Think about the top guys on the BJJ scene...I doubt most of them have a hard time finding training partners when they want them, but almost all of them do some S&C. To me this implies that they believe it's worth giving up a few BJJ sessions to work on their overall athleticism. That makes a lot of sense as they're already so technically good that they need to seek an edge elsewhere, or conversely that they realize that they're not technically superior to their strength training adversaries enough to make up for a significant gap in physicality.

This is not to say give up BJJ for powerlifting when you get your purple belt by any means. But at least exhausting your noob gains on something like SS or 5/3/1 is almost certainly a good idea for a competitive advanced grappler who has never lifted. Once you start hitting the point of diminishing returns on your S&C or your strength training starts detracting from your BJJ due to fatigue and/or gym time you can pull back to a maintenance schedule, but for any novice lifter you'll have made really big gains up until that point. I think most younger guys willing to do so mild diet modification (mostly upping protein intake) could go from never lifting to hitting Rippetoe's men's strength standards within a year or so. And if you don't think that going from being able to lift jack shit to squatting 1.5x BW, DL 2x BW, and bench 1x BW with additional overhead strength gains isn't going to help your practical results in BJJ a lot you're delusional.

I agree it's dependent to a certain extent on the individual. For me, my lack of technique is more critical than my lack of strength(for the record, while I'm probably stronger than average, I certainly don't consider myself strong). I want to make improvements in both my strength and my skill, but if I had to choose one over the other, it would be skill every time.

 

[QingTian]

I'd be interested to hear more about the flexibility and mobility works you've been doing. I've been working a lot on my shoulders and hips (mobility wise) for the last 6 weeks or so. I've definitely noticed an improvement in terms of pain and quality of life, but don't see it reaping huge dividends in terms of my game.

As far as strength goes - I find that there are three categories: (1) the very weak (2) most of the population and the (3) freakishly strong. Going from (1) to (2) isn't terribly hard if you do serious weight training, and can pay huge dividends.

Being in group (3) generally means you can completely overwhelm people from (1) or (2) with pure physicality. The mistake is most people haven't encountered anyone from group (3) - they mistake relatively strong people from group (2) as being members of group (3). Going from (2) to (3) is very difficult, and generally requires serious participation in a barbell sport (for years) or being a genetic abnormality.

I dunno about this. As long as you are reasonably close in weight, the bigger difference that I've experienced is in endurance, not strength. I know how to neutralize strength but not a skilled and relentless opponent. I think once you become an experienced grappler, you should no longer face someone with a large strength gap as you will be pretty strong yourself.

 

[cjd]

I dunno about this. As long as you are reasonably close in weight, the bigger difference that I've experienced is in endurance, not strength. I know how to neutralize strength but not a skilled and relentless opponent. I think once you become an experienced grappler, you should no longer face someone with a large strength gap as you will be pretty strong yourself.

Look, the vast majority of people will be in what I called group 2. There can be pretty significant strength differences within that, but they tend to be negated with moderate differences in skill. The group 3 people are freaky, freaky strong. Which is not to say they're invincible or anything, they can definitely be beaten by skilled people, but at the same time, they get away with stuff they shouldn't be able to get away with, and can be a huge pain in the ass for even highly skilled people once they learn even a little bit.

 

[QingTian]

Look, the vast majority of people will be in what I called group 2. There can be pretty significant strength differences within that, but they tend to be negated with moderate differences in skill. The group 3 people are freaky, freaky strong. Which is not to say they're invincible or anything, they can definitely be beaten by skilled people, but at the same time, they get away with stuff they shouldn't be able to get away with, and can be a huge pain in the ass for even highly skilled people once they learn even a little bit.

What is freaky strong to you? Like having someone your weight category pick you up, jump, then power bomb you into the mat? Yeah I had that happen to me, then as I got better and stronger I beat him up right back.

I trained at a place where half the room was made up what people might call freaky strong, and it was just really the result of hard work over time. Everyone got strong. Some were stronger still, yes, but in the end I still feared the freaky endurance guy over macho man.

I was a part timer, was a graduate student then a office job. My strength level wasn't that much different from full time athletes who lifted (not just my opinion). It was endurance that made the performance difference.

 

[cjd]

What is freaky strong to you? Like having someone your weight category pick you up, jump, then power bomb you into the mat? Yeah I had that happen to me, then as I got better and stronger I beat him up right back.

I trained at a place where half the room was made up what people might call freaky strong, and it was just really the result of hard work over time. Everyone got strong. Some were stronger still, yes, but in the end I still feared the freaky endurance guy over macho man.

I was a part timer, was a graduate student then a office job. My strength level wasn't that much different from full time athletes who lifted (not just my opinion). It was endurance that made the performance difference.

No, I'm talking about the top 10th of a percent of the trained population. I'm not talking about necessarily full-time grapplers who lift. I mean serious strength athletes. Guys who are able to brutalize blues and purples just through strength and aggression, and are able to muscle their way through the craziest things.

Some perspective: I wrestled in college and train at probably the best competition gym on the east coast. I have only encountered a handful of guys at this level of physical strength.

Ultimately, someone skilled beats them. But it puts into relief the level of skill required.

 

[the heed]

No, wrestling isn't boring
however, watching two people who can't wrestle is in fact boring

Rodolfo vs. Pena was fun to watch till both of them were gassed out of their mind.. 40 mins is a LONG TIME for anyone to grapple in...

However, there were plenty of matches that were just so mind blowingly boring.

 

[Mcmoon]

No, wrestling isn't boring
however, watching two people who can't wrestle is in fact boring

Rodolfo vs. Pena was fun to watch till both of them were gassed out of their mind.. 40 mins is a LONG TIME for anyone to grapple in...

However, there were plenty of matches that were just so mind blowingly boring.

Wrong thread maybe?

 

[the heed]

Wrong thread maybe?

yeah I have no idea why this got posted on this thread...

 

[JosephDredd]

Wow - I really appreciate your response! What package do you recommend for a beginner?

Foundations 1 is the basic course and you don't really need anything else.

When I purchased Foundations 1 I also got Handstand 1 because I have bad shoulders and thought this program would be fantastic for it. And it was, but I was really surprised because the early steps are 1 shoulder strength move, 1 shoulder mobility move and 7 or 8 exercises dedicated solely to strengthening, conditioning and increasing the flexibility of the fingers/wrists/forearms. They focus on this so you'll be able to control a freestanding handstand, but all I needed to do was add some neck work and this really felt like a BJJ-specific program.

I recently got the stretching series, which is 3 45-minute workouts you do once (each) per week as a video follow-along program. One workout is for front splits, one workout is for middle splits and one workout is for thoracic mobility . Some of the stretches they do are so crazy they seem to be out of a bad dream about the circus, but... I really cannot say how happy I am to have gotten this stretch series. I would almost say it's going to be more valuable to me than the other programs I bought. I've done yoga before, I've done stretching programs before, but at the end of the week it's essentially a dedicated full-body stretching program that takes 2.25 hours to complete. I used to do the entire body in 1 45-minute session. Taking 135 minutes to do the entire body has a transformative effect that has been miind-blowing to me. I'm used to seeing slow, but steady, progress from stretching, but the amount of progress I see every week from this series is leaps and bounds. I think it's important that it's not one full-body 45-minute workout done 3 times, it's 1 135-minute workout divided up through the week, but, fuck, I'm always so amazed and happy when I finish it. I'm always amazed and happy when I go to BJJ and see what this means to my groundwork as well.

What it means to me in terms of gymnastic progress is that, as long as I'm doing the stretch series, I'm going to progress much, much quicker in the strength work of the Foundations program because the mobility steps are going to be much, much easier.

Foundations is all you need, but I invested in other programs and am really happy I did. I will say that, in retrospect, I may not have needed to buy the handstand 1 program because I really purchased it to fix my shoulders and the thoracic stretch series is doing a much more thorough job of that. However, I still train the handstand program faithfully because of its focus on fingers/wrist/forearm S&C and the benefits in BJJ have been obvious.

Foundations 1 will likely take you a few years of dedicated work even though it will look pretty simple. This is because the strength work will demand complete mastery of the movement and the mobility work will demand things from you that you've never had demanded of you. For instance, here is the Hawaiian squat, which is mastery step for the squat strength series in Foundations 1:

[YT]2jRMa4L0Yew[/YT]

I can already do pistols for reps because my legs are my strongest body part, but the work they are demanding of me to work up to a pistol makes me feel like I've never done leg work in my life. It's the damnedest thing.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Foundations 1 is the basic course and you don't really need anything else.

When I purchased Foundations 1 I also got Handstand 1 because I have bad shoulders and thought this program would be fantastic for it. And it was, but I was really surprised because the early steps are 1 shoulder strength move, 1 shoulder mobility move and 7 or 8 exercises dedicated solely to strengthening, conditioning and increasing the flexibility of the fingers/wrists/forearms. They focus on this so you'll be able to control a freestanding handstand, but all I needed to do was add some neck work and this really felt like a BJJ-specific program.

I recently got the stretching series, which is 3 45-minute workouts you do once (each) per week as a video follow-along program. One workout is for front splits, one workout is for middle splits and one workout is for thoracic mobility . Some of the stretches they do are so crazy they seem to be out of a bad dream about the circus, but... I really cannot say how happy I am to have gotten this stretch series. I would almost say it's going to be more valuable to me than the other programs I bought. I've done yoga before, I've done stretching programs before, but at the end of the week it's essentially a dedicated full-body stretching program that takes 2.25 hours to complete. I used to do the entire body in 1 45-minute session. Taking 135 minutes to do the entire body has a transformative effect that has been miind-blowing to me. I'm used to seeing slow, but steady, progress from stretching, but the amount of progress I see every week from this series is leaps and bounds. I think it's important that it's not one full-body 45-minute workout done 3 times, it's 1 135-minute workout divided up through the week, but, fuck, I'm always so amazed and happy when I finish it. I'm always amazed and happy when I go to BJJ and see what this means to my groundwork as well.

What it means to me in terms of gymnastic progress is that, as long as I'm doing the stretch series, I'm going to progress much, much quicker in the strength work of the Foundations program because the mobility steps are going to be much, much easier.

Foundations is all you need, but I invested in other programs and am really happy I did. I will say that, in retrospect, I may not have needed to buy the handstand 1 program because I really purchased it to fix my shoulders and the thoracic stretch series is doing a much more thorough job of that. However, I still train the handstand program faithfully because of its focus on fingers/wrist/forearm S&C and the benefits in BJJ have been obvious.

Foundations 1 will likely take you a few years of dedicated work even though it will look pretty simple. This is because the strength work will demand complete mastery of the movement and the mobility work will demand things from you that you've never had demanded of you. For instance, here is the Hawaiian squat, which is mastery step for the squat strength series in Foundations 1:

[YT]2jRMa4L0Yew[/YT]

I can already do pistols for reps because my legs are my strongest body part, but the work they are demanding of me to work up to a pistol makes me feel like I've never done leg work in my life. It's the damnedest thing.

I'm really interested in checking this out. Are most of these videos on YouTube?

 

[JosephDredd]

I'm really interested in checking this out. Are most of these videos on YouTube?

As I look up this info for you I'm realizing how much Gymnastic Bodies has grown.

The programs I'm talking about are only available through purchase (and they are pricey, but I am happy with the results) at their homepage (link). I have Foundations 1, Handstand 1 and the stretching series and those are the ones I talked about earlier.

Here (link) is a free program they've offered through Youtube and Facebook. Their channel on Youtube has the videos, you follow each one daily for a month. If you browse through them you'll see how they attack complex movements by building up strength of the primary movers, supporting strength, connective tissue strength and flexibility everywhere.

Here (link) are their online classes, which I didn't even know existed until writing this post. It offers three free classes and you can pay to subscribe to more. I'm going to have to see if I have access to these. They sound pretty cool and I paid plenty of money for their programs, so I kind of hope I do. They don't look like they contain any more info than I already have access to (in fact it looks like a small subsection of the courses I've purchased), but follow-along classes would be fantastic for me on the days I'm feeling kind of blah between gymnastics and BJJ and looking for the motivation to get started.

I have to say I don't know much about their online classes or their handstand challenge, but my first impression is that they have definitely not skimped on their free material in terms of showcasing their teaching methodology or training techniques.

EDIT: Okay, so I just found this info regarding the difference between the online classes and the courses I've purchased.

The online classes are only for beginners. The intention is that if you wish to advance beyond them, you buy the Foundation/Handstand courses and go through them.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

As I look up this info for you I'm realizing how much Gymnastic Bodies has grown.

The programs I'm talking about are only available through purchase (and they are pricey, but I am happy with the results) at their homepage (link). I have Foundations 1, Handstand 1 and the stretching series and those are the ones I talked about earlier.

Here (link) is a free program they've offered through Youtube and Facebook. Their channel on Youtube has the videos, you follow each one daily for a month. If you browse through them you'll see how they attack complex movements by building up strength of the primary movers, supporting strength, connective tissue strength and flexibility everywhere.

Here (link) are their online classes, which I didn't even know existed until writing this post. It offers three free classes and you can pay to subscribe to more. I'm going to have to see if I have access to these. They sound pretty cool and I paid plenty of money for their programs, so I kind of hope I do. They don't look like they contain any more info than I already have access to (in fact it looks like a small subsection of the courses I've purchased), but follow-along classes would be fantastic for me on the days I'm feeling kind of blah between gymnastics and BJJ and looking for the motivation to get started.

I have to say I don't know much about their online classes or their handstand challenge, but my first impression is that they have definitely not skimped on their free material in terms of showcasing their teaching methodology or training techniques.

Thank you for the information I appreciate it. I'm at work but when I get home I'm definitely going to check this all out. I been slacking on my bjj of late but I'm looking to get back into it and anything that would help is awesome. Thanks

 

[JosephDredd]

Thank you for the information I appreciate it. I'm at work but when I get home I'm definitely going to check this all out. I been slacking on my bjj of late but I'm looking to get back into it and anything that would help is awesome. Thanks

You're welcome! It's no substitute for doing BJJ, but it was a fantastic supplement for me.

 

[Dirty Holt]

In wrestling, having freak strength and power is something that is coveted and respected by competitors and fans.

In BJJ, it is something very hard to deal with and uncomfortable to fight against, therefore many BJJ guys will for some reason insult and denigrate competitive advantages that give them fits.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In wrestling, having freak strength and power is something that is coveted and respected by competitors and fans.

In BJJ, it is something very hard to deal with and uncomfortable to fight against, therefore many BJJ guys will for some reason insult and denigrate competitive advantages that give them fits.

Because BJJ is supposed to be about getting good technically rather than winning matches. Winning matches is supposed to be a function of better technique, not physical attributes. I don't agree with this idea (you win how you can win), and I haven't actually met many people who try to get by on strength rather than learn technique which is supposedly the downside of being strong and using it while rolling, but I think that's the general argument. Personally I like rolling with really strong guys, it gives you a much better idea of how good you really are in various positions. If I can sweep a dude who can DL 2x what I can, that sweep is probably going to work on anyone.

I think the silly 'BJJ takes no strength, Helio could barely lift his arm' mythos is thankfully dying, but it's a slow death and there are plenty of people whose livelihoods depend partially on selling that myth, so my guess is it still has legs at least in certain BJJ circles. Though those people usually suck and continue to be marginalized in the larger community.

 

[Dirty Holt]

This years ADCC looked more like a Bodybuilding competition than most college wrestling tournaments.

 

[brendan raedy]

This years ADCC looked more like a Bodybuilding competition than most college wrestling tournaments.

That's because the NCAA drug tests.

 

[brendan raedy]

In wrestling, having freak strength and power is something that is coveted and respected by competitors and fans.

In BJJ, it is something very hard to deal with and uncomfortable to fight against, therefore many BJJ guys will for some reason insult and denigrate competitive advantages that give them fits.

I think in wrestling often times the biggest, strongest guys don't have the reputations as the most technical.

In BJJ, if someone is technical, we totally ignore the fact they are jacked or shredded.

Are Rodolfo and Rafa super technical? For sure. But...

 

[mrwhizzer]

Forearm/grip strength is.