Is Oleksandr Usyk in your top 10 ATG rankings?

[defjaam]

You think people misjudge things because Usyk defeated a few big heavyweights? He's defeated everybody including guys his size at cruiser. Did the same in the amateurs. Marciano was a great fighter but he was the size of some super middleweights or average sized light heavyweights today. Qawi was only like 5'6 or 5'7. Usyk would have extreme physical advantages over them. I could see some of those guys giving him a tough time but that's not saying much. Several fighters have tested Usyk but ultimately he's always found a way to beat them.

Yea but I think it's his last three opponents that clouds peoples view.
And even from those opponents I'd pick 2015 Fury to beat him, which I don't like saying because Fury is an annoying prick whereas Usyk's a good guy. I'd also pick Vitali Klitschko over him.

What's funny is that Usyk and Ali have so much in common. Same height, same reach, same date of birth, both Olympic gold winners, both movers in the ring. And one commonality is also that people misjudge Ali in the same manner.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Yeah, Holyfield is only competition to him at CW.

At HW alone i'm not sure about top10 yet, could be top15 one spot above Gene Tunney

P4P i agree, maybe even higher between top21-25, i've seen Ezzard Charles ranked 22-23 usually and i consider Usyk the same as him legacy wise.

Yeah I would consider him fringe top 10 at HW, but thats just with his current resume, as if he retired tomorrow. It already feels like a foregone conclusion he is going to school Parker later this year and then beat Fury even more decisively next year. At that point he will be undeniably top 10 imo.

 

[Hotora86]

that's like getting 9 A's at GCSE level but only getting a 2:2 at university.

Winning the undisputed HW title across all major orgs is equal to a lower second-class honours degree?

 

[Hotora86]

That wasn't your argument. You had framed it in such a way to suggest that one's GCSEs would add extra value to a degree.

Now you're comparing Olympic gold to GCSE.

 

[surgeyou1]

No. But that's not really his fault. He's beaten whoever they have put in front of him. But I don't think he has faced any ATGs. And there's only so many weight classes he can jump.

 

[TinyTornado]

Given the wide, expansive list of boxers over the decades....no.

BUT...he's definitely in my all-time top HW's of all-time.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Yea but I think it's his last three opponents that clouds peoples view.
And even from those opponents I'd pick 2015 Fury to beat him, which I don't like saying because Fury is an annoying prick whereas Usyk's a good guy. I'd also pick Vitali Klitschko over him.

What's funny is that Usyk and Ali have so much in common. Same height, same reach, same date of birth, both Olympic gold winners, both movers in the ring. And one commonality is also that people misjudge Ali in the same manner.

The 2015 version of Fury would've been a tougher fight as he was quicker and moved much better back then. However, I think it'd still come down to IQ and Usyk's is superior. Fury just isn't as good at making adjustments on-the-fly. He's very dominant in rematches but that didn't hold true against Usyk. Vitali might've beaten him but I also wouldn't have been surprised if he was outpointed and it went the distance. There are many similarities between Usyk & Ali. I have no explanation for them. I think that they're purely coincidental but nevertheless it's quite strange.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

that's like getting 9 A's at GCSE level but only getting a 2:2 at university.

Bad analogy, boss. Amateur credentials are taken into account by the International Boxing Hall Of Fame (IBHOF). We have a 3x Olympic gold medalist in there by the name of Laszlo Papp and he never did anything notable as a pro aside from briefly becoming a mere contender. He never even fought for a world title.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

What the ibhof think and what fans think is not the same

You're right. What the HOF thinks is much more important. It's strictly up to them as to whether a fighter is immortalized forever or not.

 

[SandisLL]

Bad analogy, boss. Amateur credentials are taken into account by the International Boxing Hall Of Fame (IBHOF). We have a 3x Olympic gold medalist in there by the name of Laszlo Papp and he never did anything notable as a pro aside from briefly becoming a mere contender. He never even fought for a world title.

Papp style was very suitable for pros....he had very high stoppage %, especially for am rules...get fucked up hands and still get 3 rd Olympic Gold Medal. With bad hands.
With good hands he had very high first round stoppage % even under am rules.

Later he was considered as too old for Oly team ( IRL most likely cos hands condition )....

Hungarian socialists allowed him to fight as a pro because still tax % might had get from this....

Later their government told that socialist boxers are all amateurs and he can't compete as a pro anymore.

Maybe cos he had some property in Hungary and some savings plus was over the hill, he opted to end compete in pro boxing...

 

[r-harper-1]

Top 5 cruiserweight

Top 20 ish heavyweights

 

[BoxingMMA]

Tyson's most important fights.

Holyfield 1
Holyfield 2
Lewis

Lost all 3. It's crazy how people rank Tyson. Just crazy. I lived through his era, and I saw him lose to Douglas, saw him lose fights he shouldn't have. Saw him do crazy shit to try and get out of a fight he was uncomfortable with.

I love mike the way I love a train wreck. It's flashy and impressive. But putting Mike Tyson in top 10 is ridiculous to anyone who has actually followed the sport.

Sometimes I get the feeling all these tyson fans are young people with access to youtube.

 

[defjaam]

Tyson's most important fights.

Holyfield 1
Holyfield 2
Lewis

Why were his fights vs. Berbick and Tucker less important?
Against Berbick he competed to become the youngest heavyweight champion in history and against Tucker he competed for the undisputed championship.

 

[Dana's Moonface]

Yeah, Holyfield is only competition to him at CW.

At HW alone i'm not sure about top10 yet, could be top15 one spot above Gene Tunney

P4P i agree, maybe even higher between top21-25, i've seen Ezzard Charles ranked 22-23 usually and i consider Usyk the same as him legacy wise.

I'd have Charles higher personally, but good post

 

[defjaam]

I'd have Charles higher personally, but good post

Beat everyone at middleweight, never got a shot at the title.
Moved up to light-heavyweight, beat everyone there too, never got a shot at the title.
Moved up to heavyweight, finally got a shot at the title and won it.

All of that without modern training methods, no possibility to study opponents on tape and with a world war in between. It's really not comparable with so many decades in between, but at the same time you can't ignore the old timers.

 

[BoxingMMA]

Why were his fights vs. Berbick and Tucker less important?
Against Berbick he competed to become the youngest heavyweight champion in history and against Tucker he competed for the undisputed championship.

Kind of a crazy question. Mike fought two all time greats in his run, at or close to their primes (give or take) how could any other fight in his career matter more than those?

 

[defjaam]

Kind of a crazy question. Mike fought two all time greats in his run, at or close to their primes (give or take) how could any other fight in his career matter more than those?

Reverse logic - did Holyfield and Lewis fight him at his prime?

I gave reasons why.

 

[Dr Fong]

Tyson's most important fights.

Holyfield 1
Holyfield 2
Lewis

Lost all 3. It's crazy how people rank Tyson. Just crazy. I lived through his era, and I saw him lose to Douglas, saw him lose fights he shouldn't have. Saw him do crazy shit to try and get out of a fight he was uncomfortable with.

I love mike the way I love a train wreck. It's flashy and impressive. But putting Mike Tyson in top 10 is ridiculous to anyone who has actually followed the sport.

Sometimes I get the feeling all these tyson fans are young people with access to youtube.

It's interesting to see Tyson denigrated in a thread about Usyk, because one of the biggest reasons Usyk gets such an enthusiastic reacharound from everybody is his size.

We put someone who wasted too much of his pro career either fighting at cruiserweight or sitting on the bench on a pedestal, while shitting on a significantly smaller man who stepped in against HWs from day one. And sometimes fought double the amount of them in a single year.

 

[defjaam]

And sometimes fought double the amount of them in a single year.

This is the part a lot of people overlook. Compare Wladimir Klitschkos schedule as a champion and Usyk's schedule to Tyson's schedule from 86 and 87. Both Klitschko and Usyk would get knocked out if they attempted to compete that much.

James Tillis on May 3, 1986. Mitch Green on May 20, 1986.
You're out of your goddamn mind if you think a 38 y. old Usyk could do that.

 

[BoxingMMA]

It's interesting to see Tyson denigrated in a thread about Usyk, because one of the biggest reasons Usyk gets such an enthusiastic reacharound from everybody is his size.

We put someone who wasted too much of his pro career either fighting at cruiserweight or sitting on the bench on a pedestal, while shitting on a significantly smaller man who stepped in against HWs from day one. And sometimes fought double the amount of them in a single year.

This is the part a lot of people overlook. Compare Wladimir Klitschkos schedule as a champion and Usyk's schedule to Tyson's schedule from 86 and 87. Both Klitschko and Usyk would get knocked out if they attempted to compete that much.

James Tillis on May 3, 1986. Mitch Green on May 20, 1986.
You're out of your goddamn mind if you think a 38 y. old Usyk could do that.

I don’t know what Usyk can or can’t do at this point. But what I can guarantee is he wouldn’t lose to Buster Douglas