Is Kesting right, how many mma/bjj guys take steroids?

[BJJ_Rage]

You should have seen some of the physiques of some of the guys I played college football with many years ago. I only played at a D-1AA school and some of the guys on the team had absolutely freakish physiques...and they trained 3-4 hours a day, 5 days a week or so. At that was only on a 1AA football team and not on bigtime D1 schools like USC.

Getting big, ripped, and highly athletic/agile is something that can be achieved without roids. I am not saying many of the top guys are not on roids ( I have no idea), I am just saying it is not that difficult to achieve if you eat right, train right, and recover. Hell at 19 years old I was 200 lbs of extremely lean muscle, could run a 4.5 40y dash, two hand dunk a bball, and pretty much run/workout all day long. And I wasn't training like a pro athlete like many top bjj

 

[SUPERGRAPPLER]

Early 30s. I am gettin' a tad old. If I kept at your pace, it'd only be a matter of time until I injured myself.

But (not to be condescending in my turn), maybe your weightlifting wasn't as rigorous as my system? On the Starting Strength program you are doing the compound lifts: Squats, Deadlifts, Press, Bench Press, Power Clean. At every workout you are going to your max work interval(3x5). The subsequent workout you add on weight to that period. So you are essentially PRing every single workout. This is done until you are no longer able to keep on adding weight. It is known as a novice progression, and [at least for me] required a great deal of resources(time/rest and food) in order to recover adequately from workout to workout.

But yeah, if I was 10 years younger, maybe I could pull off what you are doing.

So you'd prioritize weight lifting before Jiu-jitsu?

 

[joe_mama]

So you'd prioritize weight lifting before Jiu-jitsu?

Yes. I was coming off of an injury and the doctor prescribed squats for rehab. Once I was well enough to train again, I decided to go full bore with the strength training. Have never felt better, and am now a firm evangelist in strength training for jiu jitsu. Best injury prevention insurance there is.

 

[anaconda]

Yes. I was coming off of an injury and the doctor prescribed squats for rehab. Once I was well enough to train again, I decided to go full bore with the strength training. Have never felt better, and am now a firm evangelist in strength training for jiu jitsu. Best injury prevention insurance there is.

That sounds like an awesome Dr!

Most Drs will tell you to just stop weight lifting after an injury bc its too dangerous...especially squats and deadlift

 

[Leify]

So you'd prioritize weight lifting before Jiu-jitsu?

IMO, strength training to the point where you exhaust linear progression should be prioritized over any highly physical sport. After that point, if you don't want to focus on gaining strength, maintenance is easy, leaving loads of time and energy for your sport.

The benefits of just having a baseline of strength are numerous, and the cons few, and we're talking about only 3-4 months of prioritizing strength.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

Fair point, this is very hard to do if you are training jiu jitsu or mma full time also. I actually had to quit jiu jitsu for a couple months, as I just could not sufficiently recover from lifting weights 3x a week, and then trying to do jiu jitsu on top of that.

That being said putting on 20-30 lbs in a years time doing compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, as well as drinking a a gallon of whole milk a day/taking in a ton of protein does not require great genetics. If you are careful with your diet and titrate your input, you can put on mostly lean mass. At any rate though, once you resume your normal jiu jitsu conditioning training, the fat burns off pretty quickly.

That was my experience anyway.

Anyone can gain 30 lbs. in a year. NO ONE is putting on 30 pounds of lean muscle in a year without roids. If there is some genetic freak that actually can, that's about 0.01% of the population and is not worth mentioning.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

IMO, strength training to the point where you exhaust linear progression should be prioritized over any highly physical sport. After that point, if you don't want to focus on gaining strength, maintenance is easy, leaving loads of time and energy for your sport.

The benefits of just having a baseline of strength are numerous, and the cons few, and we're talking about only 3-4 months of prioritizing strength.

I actually agree. Strength training is the single most efficient use of your time for improving your athletic ability/performance. 3 hours a week for a few months and you can get WAY stronger. With no other single physical activity will you see results this fast. Heavy lifting is the single best use of your time.

 

[Gfreak]

I actually agree. Strength training is the single most efficient use of your time for improving your athletic ability/performance. 3 hours a week for a few months and you can get WAY stronger. With no other single physical activity will you see results this fast. Heavy lifting is the single best use of your time.

I'm all for lifting...I"m a huge supporter of athletes lifting heavy. But to say that IMO is just wrong. I lift heavy 4x a week. But if I had to pick one. I would drop lifting to do BJJ. So therefore, lifting is not the best use of my time.

Even at a beginner level, it all comes down to goals. No one can say something is the "best" for something else. If your main goal is to get better at BJJ, then BJJ is the BEST use of your time. If you want to get stronger, then lifting is the best use of your time. It all comes down to priorites.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

I'm all for lifting...I"m a huge supporter of athletes lifting heavy. But to say that IMO is just wrong. I lift heavy 4x a week. But if I had to pick one. I would drop lifting to do BJJ. So therefore, lifting is not the best use of my time.

Even at a beginner level, it all comes down to goals. No one can say something is the "best" for something else. If your main goal is to get better at BJJ, then BJJ is the BEST use of your time. If you want to get stronger, then lifting is the best use of your time. It all comes down to priorites.

I would also give up lifting to just do BJJ. What I am saying is that as far as physically measurable results, nothing is more efficient than lifting. This is independent of goals.

 

[Gfreak]

I would also give up lifting to just do BJJ. What I am saying is that as far as physically measurable results, nothing is more efficient than lifting. This is independent of goals.

Unless you're talking about conditioning...the ability to run distance for time is a physically measurable result. Yet lifting is not efficient for it at all. :wink:

 

[Leify]

I'm all for lifting...I"m a huge supporter of athletes lifting heavy. But to say that IMO is just wrong. I lift heavy 4x a week. But if I had to pick one. I would drop lifting to do BJJ. So therefore, lifting is not the best use of my time.

Even at a beginner level, it all comes down to goals. No one can say something is the "best" for something else. If your main goal is to get better at BJJ, then BJJ is the BEST use of your time. If you want to get stronger, then lifting is the best use of your time. It all comes down to priorites.

I think of it this way. Strength is persistent (to snatch a quote from Rippetoe) and easy to maintain if you keep your diet in check while lifting once or twice a week. Increasing maximal strength, and it's direct benefits like explosiveness, injury prevention, and submaximal strength increases, all carry over very well to even a technical person's BJJ.

And remember, I'm just talking about prioritizing strength for a couple months, not ceasing BJJ training. Just leave enough in the tank to not hinder progression. When linear progression is exhausted, put strength on maintenance and throw yourself into your BJJ training.

 

[Gfreak]

I think of it this way. Strength is persistent (to snatch a quote from Rippetoe) and easy to maintain if you keep your diet in check while lifting once or twice a week. Increasing maximal strength, and it's direct benefits like explosiveness, injury prevention, and submaximal strength increases, all carry over very well to even a technical person's BJJ.

And remember, I'm just talking about prioritizing strength for a couple months, not ceasing BJJ training. Just leave enough in the tank to not hinder progression. When linear progression is exhausted, put strength on maintenance and throw yourself into your BJJ training.

Oh yea, and I agree with you haha. I was more talking to the other guy who said it was the flat out best use of your time.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

Unless you're talking about conditioning...the ability to run distance for time is a physically measurable result. Yet lifting is not efficient for it at all. :wink:

What I mean is the percentage increase in your performance will increase the most for the least amount of time put in with lifting. I'm not saying lifting will help everything the most. I'm saying you can improve your strength with lifting with fewer hours put in than you can improve anything else by doing anything else for that same amount of time.

 

[anaconda]

What I mean is the percentage increase in your performance will increase the most for the least amount of time put in with lifting. I'm not saying lifting will help everything the most. I'm saying you can improve your strength with lifting with fewer hours put in than you can improve anything else by doing anything else for that same amount of time.

Well I'll say it - for the untrained (in terms of lifting) doing 8+ weeks of a Starting Strength like program will help you the most with the least amount of time put in across the greatest range of variables.

By taking advantage of the noob gains (mostly nervous system adaptations with some muscle development thrown in) from the first few weeks of lifting, you can become much stronger and more explosive with just a couple of hours of lifting a week. After you build up that initial level of strength gain, it becomes up to you and your priorities how much to develop your strength vs power vs capacity, etc.

But if you take training seriously and don't do a focused training block on strength development you are selling yourself wayyy short.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think of it this way. Strength is persistent (to snatch a quote from Rippetoe) and easy to maintain if you keep your diet in check while lifting once or twice a week. Increasing maximal strength, and it's direct benefits like explosiveness, injury prevention, and submaximal strength increases, all carry over very well to even a technical person's BJJ.

And remember, I'm just talking about prioritizing strength for a couple months, not ceasing BJJ training. Just leave enough in the tank to not hinder progression. When linear progression is exhausted, put strength on maintenance and throw yourself into your BJJ training.

This is pretty much what I do. I'm not a particularly strong person, and I plateau pretty early, but the base of strength I try to maintain definitely helps my BJJ a great deal. I notice a difference if I totally give it up (as I have for various reasons for the last two months, unfortunately).

 

[syncopizer]

I've made the decision to prioritize gaining size and strength over my BJJ time.

People who have never had an altercation with a big, strong, athletic person or who have never been big, strong and athletic constantly underestimate just how devastating size and strength is. It's taboo to suggest that in many BJJ circles, so I don't try when I'm not on a virtual soap box. However, I trained a sort of power lifting / bodybuilding hybrid in the past and was moving pretty big weights. My experience after training BJJ for a little while now is that that kind of strength with even the smallest amount of technique will roll through the vast majority of recreational fighters of a lesser stature. Not to mention, few things feel as good as being lean and muscular.

Now, I actually love BJJ more than weight training and if I could "only" choose one I'd go with BJJ. But, given that I'm just getting back into shape and I can afford to do both at the moment I think this is the best decision for me and completely understand why people do things this way.

When I do train BJJ I make the best of it. Because I don't train very frequently I focus on the fundamentals--I don't train the more fancy guards much, keep my submission arsenal small, and all I really care about is position. I try to play a small guys game despite not being very small. And, I pay for privates so that the few things I know, I can execute fairly effectively.

Also, IMO it's a total myth that the size and strength will force you into developing a less technical game. A person only needs to make the conscious decision not to use their strength when they roll and they can still develop a technically sound game. E.g. If I'm not getting a triangle while sparring I won't squeeze harder to get it, I'll adjust positioning. If I fail to make the positional adjustments necessary to cinch it up because my opponent is a step or two ahead of me, I'll forfeit the attack as I might be forced to if my opponent were bigger and stronger than me and I couldn't muscle it through.

 

[JustCuz]

I've made the decision to prioritize gaining size and strength over my BJJ time.

People who have never had an altercation with a big, strong, athletic person or who have never been big, strong and athletic constantly underestimate just how devastating size and strength is. It's taboo to suggest that in many BJJ circles, so I don't try when I'm not on a virtual soap box. However, I trained a sort of power lifting / bodybuilding hybrid in the past and was moving pretty big weights. My experience after training BJJ for a little while now is that that kind of strength with even the smallest amount of technique will roll through the vast majority of recreational fighters of a lesser stature. Not to mention, few things feel as good as being lean and muscular.

Now, I actually love BJJ more than weight training and if I could "only" choose one I'd go with BJJ. But, given that I'm just getting back into shape and I can afford to do both at the moment I think this is the best decision for me and completely understand why people do things this way.

When I do train BJJ I make the best of it. Because I don't train very frequently I focus on the fundamentals--I don't train the more fancy guards much, keep my submission arsenal small, and all I really care about is position. I try to play a small guys game despite not being very small. And, I pay for privates so that the few things I know, I can execute fairly effectively.

Also, IMO it's a total myth that the size and strength will force you into developing a less technical game. A person only needs to make the conscious decision not to use their strength when they roll and they can still develop a technically sound game. E.g. If I'm not getting a triangle while sparring I won't squeeze harder to get it, I'll adjust positioning. If I fail to make the positional adjustments necessary to cinch it up because my opponent is a step or two ahead of me, I'll forfeit the attack as I might be forced to if my opponent were bigger and stronger than me and I couldn't muscle it through.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your belt level in BJJ?

I'm not trying to troll; I'm just honestly curious if strength and athleticism can play that big of a role over improved technique at higher belt levels.

I can say with certainty that at white that it is the case.

 

[SummerStriker]

boring post.

 

[anaconda]

If you don't mind me asking, what is your belt level in BJJ?

I'm not trying to troll; I'm just honestly curious if strength and athleticism can play that big of a role over improved technique at higher belt levels.

I can say with certainty that at white that it is the case.

It can make a difference at all levels.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

Well I'll say it - for the untrained (in terms of lifting) doing 8+ weeks of a Starting Strength like program will help you the most with the least amount of time put in across the greatest range of variables.

By taking advantage of the noob gains (mostly nervous system adaptations with some muscle development thrown in) from the first few weeks of lifting, you can become much stronger and more explosive with just a couple of hours of lifting a week. After you build up that initial level of strength gain, it becomes up to you and your priorities how much to develop your strength vs power vs capacity, etc.

But if you take training seriously and don't do a focused training block on strength development you are selling yourself wayyy short.

Thank you for understanding what I meant. I agree if you don't lift you are missing out on literally an easy way to make huge improvements in overall athleticism.