Is Judo dead?

[Estebanantonio]

I find more potential for judo to grow and shine in bjj or combat sambo than remains in judo due to the evolution of IJF rules.

I'd rather see Kodokan rules from pre 1925 with leglocks being fair game and everything being more free in general.

But I'm one of those crazies who thinks that modern judo + modern bjj = something closer to real judo.

Agreed

 

[ocarey2]

Is it possible that the latest set of rule changes have been made to further distance Judo from MMA? i.e. by making the art less effective in an MMA setting, wouldn't that make the transition from judo to MMA less common thereby ensuring the best stay in judo and don't just transition to MMA whenever they get to a certain level?

By doing this the IJF would protect the sport of judo rather than just have it as another prerequisite for MMA. Realistically no martial art can truly survive on it's own if they totally throw their lot in with MMA and don't exact measures which ensure they don't dissapear or become simply the most effective techniques in MMA. For this to happen to any martial art would be a shame as pursuit in one branch of martial arts can still yield dividends in terms of overall human ingenuity.

Actually, scratch all of that. The IJF isn't smart enough for all that

 

[ChainFlow]

I find more potential for judo to grow and shine in bjj or combat sambo than remains in judo due to the evolution of IJF rules.

I'd rather see Kodokan rules from pre 1925 with leglocks being fair game and everything being more free in general.

But I'm one of those crazies who thinks that modern judo + modern bjj = something closer to real judo.

Or real jiu jitsu.

Judo is its own thing; rewarding positions based on how well you can hit the guy and leaving out the ippon mentality makes it a bit different from judo in my mind.

 

[ocarey2]

I think that people are panicking about the rule changes a little bit. Average joe blogg off the street is going to be prepared for rules. Its not going to put them off when somebody says, oh you can't grab a leg, just as much as it doesn't put them off when somebody says you can't punch or kick.

Does it put someone off soccer when you tell them about the off side rule. Ofcourse not. The only people that are going to care are wrestlers coming in and BJJ guys coming in and frankly if they are just coming to judo to prove their effectiveness as grapplers by grabbing legs against Judoka, then they are not the type of people you would want at a club. Let's be honest here. Even if leg grabs where allowed, you wouldn't be coming to judo to learn a good single or double leg. Wrestling is infinitely better at these techniques. The only shame is that throws such as te guruma and kata guruma have disappeared which makes the sport less exiting to watch, the exact opposite effect than what they were going for.

A final point. So many people on here are saying that banishing leg grabs makes judo pretty much useless for transition to MMA and I have to say I couldn't disagree more. The balance, coordintaion, and raw athleticism (strength and speed) that practice in judo gives you really is second to none in terms of martial arts except maybe wrestling and you could argue that since the ideal physique for judo, is closer to the ideal physique for MMA than the ideal physique for wrestling, that this closes that gap, or makes the positions change.

The second point I will make is that Greco Roman wrestling has an even more limiting rule set. You cannot grab OR trip your opponents legs. Does that make it inneffective in MMA? No. In fact there are many who argue that Greco Roman makes for a better base for MMA than folk or freestyle does. When you are not allowed to use the basist form of grappling (single and double leg takedowns) it forces you to develop a more complete game, which in fact, better prepares you for MMA, as long as you are cross training in everything else ofcourse.

This is also why, in my opinion, training in the various different disciplines, under their rule sets, while also spending time putting all the skills you have learned together in an MMA setting, will always be a better way to train for MMA then just going to pure MMA classes

 

[dalexan242]

I also think there is something to be said for a school being run as a business. As much as some people hate on business and people making money, it's the concern for paying bills/making money the cause instructors to be more motivated to spread the word and treat people as if they matter. I spent some time with a Judo club, the price was cheap because it was inside of a ymca but the sport and cult like atmosphere totally turned me off. I still love the techniques and we have a Judo class within our school. I don't even mind some of the traditions like bowing in and out of class I actually find it a useful to define the start and end of the class but the bow to your sensei attitude uh I'll pass on that.

I agree on that. My judo club is almost as expensive as BJJ and also has fantastic instruction, embraces cross-training and regularly has 30 adults on the mat in a class, along with the same number of kids.

While they claim the rules are to keep judo as more of a spectator sport, there are a lot of people who think that the rule changes are in part to differentiate judo from wrestling. I'm not sure MMA has really crossed their mind since they're focused more on international/Olympic competition, but the rule changes definitely push push judo further away from being a useful base/cross-training activity for other grappling sports. I think its one of those deals where if you are already very good at judo, you will be able to adapt your judo to give you an advantage in BJJ/MMA/wrestling, but there probably isn't enough bang-for-the-buck crossover to encourage aspiring BJJ/MMA/wrestling practicioners to actively seek out cross-training with judo.

 

[Q mystic]

I think that people are panicking about the rule changes a little bit. Average joe blogg off the street is going to be prepared for rules. Its not going to put them off when somebody says, oh you can't grab a leg, just as much as it doesn't put them off when somebody says you can't punch or kick.

Does it put someone off soccer when you tell them about the off side rule. Ofcourse not. The only people that are going to care are wrestlers coming in and BJJ guys coming in and frankly if they are just coming to judo to prove their effectiveness as grapplers by grabbing legs against Judoka, then they are not the type of people you would want at a club. Let's be honest here. Even if leg grabs where allowed, you wouldn't be coming to judo to learn a good single or double leg. Wrestling is infinitely better at these techniques. The only shame is that throws such as te guruma and kata guruma have disappeared which makes the sport less exiting to watch, the exact opposite effect than what they were going for.

A final point. So many people on here are saying that banishing leg grabs makes judo pretty much useless for transition to MMA and I have to say I couldn't disagree more. The balance, coordintaion, and raw athleticism (strength and speed) that practice in judo gives you really is second to none in terms of martial arts except maybe wrestling and you could argue that since the ideal physique for judo, is closer to the ideal physique for MMA than the ideal physique for wrestling, that this closes that gap, or makes the positions change.

The second point I will make is that Greco Roman wrestling has an even more limiting rule set. You cannot grab OR trip your opponents legs. Does that make it inneffective in MMA? No. In fact there are many who argue that Greco Roman makes for a better base for MMA than folk or freestyle does. When you are not allowed to use the basist form of grappling (single and double leg takedowns) it forces you to develop a more complete game, which in fact, better prepares you for MMA, as long as you are cross training in everything else ofcourse.

This is also why, in my opinion, training in the various different disciplines, under their rule sets, while also spending time putting all the skills you have learned together in an MMA setting, will always be a better way to train for MMA then just going to pure MMA classes

I agree. Good post.

 

[Q mystic]

Makes me really start to believe that judo is losing potential members that are going to bjj often because of the pain and initial 'boredom' of judo, as has been mentioned a few times.

Judo, GR, wrestling...they all seem like they could be pretty ruff yet boring sports, initially, compared to just so much ground-fighting and quick practical learning(armbars, chokes, 'familiar ufc' guard position, etc..) right off the hop in bjj, and even mma ground grappling for that matter.

Starting to believe that Judo's only real option is to score new members in their early teens or kid, where they are less likely to feel the pain and can learn and develop relatively quick because of this.

 

[dalexan242]

The second point I will make is that Greco Roman wrestling has an even more limiting rule set. You cannot grab OR trip your opponents legs. Does that make it inneffective in MMA? No. In fact there are many who argue that Greco Roman makes for a better base for MMA than folk or freestyle does.

No argument with its effectiveness, but is Greco Roman wrestling even remotely popular in the US? We have one kid in our judo club who in addition to folkstyle competes in greco/freestyle tournaments, but I wouldn't have any clue where to find adult greco wrestling training and I doubt there are many places that offer it even for kids/teens. My impression (which could be off-base) was that FS/Greco was just something that a handful of folkstyle wrestlers trained in the offseason to try to make the Olympics. If it ends up being dropped from the Olympics, will there really be anyone in the US training Greco?

 

[ocarey2]

No argument with its effectiveness, but is Greco Roman wrestling even remotely popular in the US? We have one kid in our judo club who in addition to folkstyle competes in greco/freestyle tournaments, but I wouldn't have any clue where to find adult greco wrestling training and I doubt there are many places that offer it even for kids/teens. My impression (which could be off-base) was that FS/Greco was just something that a handful of folkstyle wrestlers trained in the offseason to try to make the Olympics. If it ends up being dropped from the Olympics, will there really be anyone in the US training Greco?

I have no idea how popular it is in the US, but here in the UK it's practically non existent, but that is the case for all forms of wrestling, hence why UK fighters rarely have good wrestling

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

The Americans people are talking about when they say "Greco is awesome for MMA" (Couture, Lindland, Hendo, Jones) all started off by doing folk-style for a long, long time. Pure Greco guys from countries where they don't spend fifteen years learning a leg-attacking, ground-controlling style first have not made an impact in the sport.

 

[ocarey2]

The Americans people are talking about when they say "Greco is awesome for MMA" (Couture, Lindland, Hendo, Jones) all started off by doing folk-style for a long, long time. Pure Greco guys from countries where they don't spend fifteen years learning a leg-attacking, ground-controlling style first have not made an impact in the sport.

First of all you clearly think that having a heavy background in leg grabbing attacks and their defences is vital for MMA. I certainly don't disagree with you. You only have to watch MMA to see that leg takedowns are the most commonly used in MMA. This is why I think that if you are going to do MMA you are inevitably going to have to do some folk or freestyle. There are also merits to training Greco though. If you look at Randy couture for example. All of his takedowns are based around the clinch and very rarely does he just shoot for a double. The clinch is a huge part of the game, and skill here is arguably harder to obtain than an ability to shoot and take out someone's legs succesfully.

Edit: Also I think the reason these countries haven't made an impact in MMA has more to do with the fact that it isn't well established in those countries and that it isn't a very common transition for Greco Roman guys from countries like Iran

 

[Q mystic]

The Americans people are talking about when they say "Greco is awesome for MMA" (Couture, Lindland, Hendo, Jones) all started off by doing folk-style for a long, long time. Pure Greco guys from countries where they don't spend fifteen years learning a leg-attacking, ground-controlling style first have not made an impact in the sport.

Makes me wonder as well if 20 somethings are even entering wrestling clubs. They say it has value in mma but I suspect the same 20 something that tries oly judo and claims pain and boredom, would claim the same if they popped into wrestling clubs.

Luckily, wrestling has plenty youth with its school programs here. Unlike judo.

Seems most 20 somethings get their 'wrestling' from wrestling coaches at bjj and mma clubs teaching wrestling for bjj or mma, so they appreciate more than if they were to hit an actual wrestling club.

 

[georgejjr]

I think that people are panicking about the rule changes a little bit. Average joe blogg off the street is going to be prepared for rules. Its not going to put them off when somebody says, oh you can't grab a leg, just as much as it doesn't put them off when somebody says you can't punch or kick.

Does it put someone off soccer when you tell them about the off side rule. Ofcourse not. The only people that are going to care are wrestlers coming in and BJJ guys coming in and frankly if they are just coming to judo to prove their effectiveness as grapplers by grabbing legs against Judoka, then they are not the type of people you would want at a club. Let's be honest here. Even if leg grabs where allowed, you wouldn't be coming to judo to learn a good single or double leg. Wrestling is infinitely better at these techniques. The only shame is that throws such as te guruma and kata guruma have disappeared which makes the sport less exiting to watch, the exact opposite effect than what they were going for.

A final point. So many people on here are saying that banishing leg grabs makes judo pretty much useless for transition to MMA and I have to say I couldn't disagree more. The balance, coordintaion, and raw athleticism (strength and speed) that practice in judo gives you really is second to none in terms of martial arts except maybe wrestling and you could argue that since the ideal physique for judo, is closer to the ideal physique for MMA than the ideal physique for wrestling, that this closes that gap, or makes the positions change.

The second point I will make is that Greco Roman wrestling has an even more limiting rule set. You cannot grab OR trip your opponents legs. Does that make it inneffective in MMA? No. In fact there are many who argue that Greco Roman makes for a better base for MMA than folk or freestyle does. When you are not allowed to use the basist form of grappling (single and double leg takedowns) it forces you to develop a more complete game, which in fact, better prepares you for MMA, as long as you are cross training in everything else ofcourse.

This is also why, in my opinion, training in the various different disciplines, under their rule sets, while also spending time putting all the skills you have learned together in an MMA setting, will always be a better way to train for MMA then just going to pure MMA classes

For my part, I don't really care that much about the effectiveness aspect. At least locally, almost all real self-defense is about weapons, since the attacks are almost always done (according to both crime stats and talking to cops who train) with knives, bats, and sometimes firearms, and as often or not, two or more attackers.

The really bad part of the rule changes (since 1981, not just the recent ones) is that they've drained much of the creativity out of judo, making it a rule based sport where the ideal is to mirror some aesthetic to such an extent that it just isn't fun for most people, especially kids. I hear this as well from people who come from IJF clubs to our judo club (where what we do looks like 1970's judo - with the addition of leg locks from 1925 judo ... actually taught by a BJJ black belt but that's a detail :icon_lol: ) - they say it becomes fun again, because its about what you can come up with and do, not about what's illegal. You shouldn't have to be a judo-lawyer (one of my student's phrases when he changed clubs ... at ikkyu level) to do judo, but that's what its becoming.

This is especially true with kids, but a lot of adults say the same thing. And as others have pointed out, Greco has a very small following except for a few countries, because it too is so restricted that its just not fun for many people. Most people want to be able to roll around and try things naturally in grappling, to see what works, rather than be constrained by rules and form. Its the same reason kata isn't very popular in judo, its too restricted.

That lack of restriction is the best thing BJJ has going for it, and its a big part of why its more popular in North America. It feels more natural not to have so many illegal grips etc. In a lot of ways, BJJ looks more like traditional (say up to 1960) judo than modern judo does. Of course, I'm told the international BJJ federation is now beginning to make the same mistakes the IJF made, to cleans BJJ of elements it doesn't like, so maybe that won't last.

 

[shunyata]

Or real jiu jitsu.

Judo is its own thing; rewarding positions based on how well you can hit the guy and leaving out the ippon mentality makes it a bit different from judo in my mind.

People underestimate the unscored ippon in sub grappling and mma.

It can stun someone for a moment allowing you to advance, lock up an arm, etc.

 

[Estebanantonio]

For my part, I don't really care that much about the effectiveness aspect. At least locally, almost all real self-defense is about weapons, since the attacks are almost always done (according to both crime stats and talking to cops who train) with knives, bats, and sometimes firearms, and as often or not, two or more attackers.

The really bad part of the rule changes (since 1981, not just the recent ones) is that they've drained much of the creativity out of judo, making it a rule based sport where the ideal is to mirror some aesthetic to such an extent that it just isn't fun for most people, especially kids. I hear this as well from people who come from IJF clubs to our judo club (where what we do looks like 1970's judo - with the addition of leg locks from 1925 judo ... actually taught by a BJJ black belt but that's a detail :icon_lol: ) - they say it becomes fun again, because its about what you can come up with and do, not about what's illegal. You shouldn't have to be a judo-lawyer (one of my student's phrases when he changed clubs ... at ikkyu level) to do judo, but that's what its becoming.

This is especially true with kids, but a lot of adults say the same thing. And as others have pointed out, Greco has a very small following except for a few countries, because it too is so restricted that its just not fun for many people. Most people want to be able to roll around and try things naturally in grappling, to see what works, rather than be constrained by rules and form. Its the same reason kata isn't very popular in judo, its too restricted.

That lack of restriction is the best thing BJJ has going for it, and its a big part of why its more popular in North America. It feels more natural not to have so many illegal grips etc. In a lot of ways, BJJ looks more like traditional (say up to 1960) judo than modern judo does. Of course, I'm told the international BJJ federation is now beginning to make the same mistakes the IJF made, to cleans BJJ of elements it doesn't like, so maybe that won't last.

I think that the ibjjf does already have to many rules but I don't think they totaly shape what jiu-jitsu looks like the same way the ijf does. Luckily there are other tournament promoters who put on tournaments with less restrictive rules sets. I also think the sub only events like Gracie Worlds and Metamoris are doing alot to counter the direction the ibjjf is taking jiu-jitsu.

 

[ChainFlow]

People underestimate the unscored ippon in sub grappling and mma.

It can stun someone for a moment allowing you to advance, lock up an arm, etc.

Indeed. I use a good impact to soften up opponents frequently.

But while bjj's points system gives incentive to positions where you can deal damage with your fists, all takedowns are just 2 points, and the realism is muted vs a throw off of a mat.

This loss of recognition of the power of a throw really matters, since in judo throws are really more important than submissions. It affects the whole philosophy and approach. It's been that way since Kano, for better or worse.

Eh, rambling. Don't mind me.

 

[Estebanantonio]

Indeed. I use a good impact to soften up opponents frequently.

But while bjj's points system gives incentive to positions where you can deal damage with your fists, all takedowns are just 2 points, and the realism is muted vs a throw off of a mat.

This loss of recognition of the power of a throw really matters, since in judo throws are really more important than submissions. It affects the whole philosophy and approach. It's been that way since Kano, for better or worse.

Eh, rambling. Don't mind me.

Yeah I agree an ippon type throw in bjj should be worth as much as 4 points in my mind. I don't think it should be for the win though.

 

[shunyata]

Indeed. I use a good impact to soften up opponents frequently.

But while bjj's points system gives incentive to positions where you can deal damage with your fists, all takedowns are just 2 points, and the realism is muted vs a throw off of a mat.

This loss of recognition of the power of a throw really matters, since in judo throws are really more important than submissions. It affects the whole philosophy and approach. It's been that way since Kano, for better or worse.

Eh, rambling. Don't mind me.

I get you. Impact matters, even if not scored.

A full airborne throw can often land you in a dominant position with the impact providing a moment to advance even further while a more minor takedown that isn't so threatening might allow the opponent to reclaim guard in midair or otherwise prepare to sweep or threaten you from the bottom upon landing.

If you land in kesa on someone's ribs, they make a funny noise and can't do much for a moment.

 

[Q mystic]

That lack of restriction is the best thing BJJ has going for it, and its a big part of why its more popular in North America. It feels more natural not to have so many illegal grips etc.

yup. True, george.

So, it seems it's a combination.

New guy interested thinks...

1. Judo hurts. Why worry about throwing at there pace when I can go my own pace to learn throws in bjj.

2. Judo is boring due to its frequent initial ukemi and whatnot. In bjj I can get right to work and see results quick.

3. Too many restrictions. "I can't just rassle"?, "everything I do, I am told it isn't allowed."

4. Why do judo, when it is all allowed, and 'taught', in bjj anyway?

5. Most clubs run mon & wed from 7-9pm and sat from 10-12pm. That's too restricted as well. BJJ runs every night and often in the daytime.

6. it doesn't seem all too realistic. I know I have to stop a shot and they will shoot on me in bjj.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Is not even close to the efect Royce has, Royce ran was on a time where ninja thought to be deadly, and saying that you trained in aikido was enough to make a Mexican drug cartel lord shit his pants, Royce separated the myth from reality, Rhonda is generating lots of buzz, but is just more of the same, outanding Mma fighter. Plus Royce did it in a Nhb setting all in one night and vs much bigger guys, the impact he had on people's eyes will never be archived by anyone else in Mma...

Yes, Royce ran was amazing his best win could be either against Shamrock or Severn since those two can also grapple specially Shamrock who understands some sumbissions. Aside from putting BJJ in the Map of Martial Arts and exposing some Traditional martial arts and even some non traditional hybrid styles he also made the early blue print of MMA Jiu-Jitsu and the importance of Wrestling and takedowns. Not much credit has been given to Royce Take downs since he is not naturally good at it. But he was doing some double legs and trips on some fighters there.

Although Royce became known for submitting other "beasts" on his back. Most of his submission wins where accomplished when he is on top either by a takedown or a sweep/reversal. Most of the fights where he was forced to submit the guy on his back took much longer.

He also showed early examples of wall and stall and dirty boxing techniques remember him throwing Knees to Keith Hackneys face on the fence? That made Hackney tired.