Is Ju-Jitsu dead or dying?

Katsumi Yamada said:
how is it dying??

you can't properly beat a guy in MMA using wrestling alone....you need some submission holds or KO strikes in your arsenal, which are commonly taught in BJJ, Judo amongst other styles.
the style of wrestling which is taught in schools does not teach you to win a fight.

apart from a miniscule % slam or something, you don't learn to KO or submit an opponent...this is the real reason why wrestlers in MMA are boring.
the way they learn it, its not a martial art really.
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Thats almost as silly as the BJJ is dying comment.

The ability to take down, control and sit on their chest and punch is not something one needs a belted style to be able to do. There were several guys pretty damn successful at doing it early on. Dont forget there are a handful of chokes and maneuvers useful for submissions in wrestling too. Not a bunch but they are there.

Mir VS Lesnar two was a great example of wrestling and Hughes recent front headlock that ended with a choke out is as well. Wrestling in the US had not had that 40/50 years of development for "fighting" that BJJ went through in Brazil via vale tudo matches etc...It is just now getting the combat piece put back in. Sak and Barnett are pretty good examples of a wrestling based submission fighter through their involvement with Japanese pro wrasslin.

So lets not muddy the water by getting into wrestling is useless alone baloney, just like people are trying to leave BJJ for dead now. Go out there with that mentality and you just may find your self triangled from the guard or positionally dominated and pounded to a bloody pulp.
 
Yes and no. It will always be around but I think the days of "bjj guys" winning belts may be over. I think it has evolved to a point where you really need it for defense but offensively, it just doesnt win fights like it used to. I think for most top 10-20 guys, going into a fight now with a strategy of submitting a guy is a fool's errand. Its just too hard and guys are too well rounded.
 
BJJ is not "dead" the opposite is true and here is my top 3 reasons why:
1. Everyone knows BJJ now. Not everyone is on the same level, but it's harder to sub guys now in an MMA fight. Everyone that's any good trains BJJ, GI, No-Gi, or both.
2. One reason some wrestlers are on top of some divisions are that they can dictate where the fight takes place they are better at the clinch and takedowns. But, they also train BJJ (even if it's just how to defend against subs/sweeps) so it's harder to catch them with a sub while they are pounding the other guys face in from his guard.
3. Remember BJJ can still save your ass if you're in trouble with a big strong wrestler on top of you punching you in the face no matter what level you fight at (Silva vs Sonnen Triangle Armbar Rd 5).
 
SenshiJin said:
mma works in trends, at first it was jiu-jitsu or submission grappling, then we saw wrestlers start to have dominance then people began to sprawl and brawl and for a while strikers emerged again and then there was a period of everything and now we're seeing lots of striking wrestlers. but iron sharpens iron and everyone will keep making eachother get better at weaker points. if strikers and wrestlers are at the top now then we will see people who want to implement their fantastic ground game improve their wrestling offense so they can make people play their game.

life is all about cycles. mma is no exception to this rule. if everyone had this mentality, nobody would make it past their first practice of their respective sports because nothing would work....at first.
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I was going to comment of the "cycle" aspect myself.

well put, Sir.
 
Something silly like this always comes up, because people aways equate BJJ with subs.

The entire ground game, unless you're a Judo expert or Sambo expert, is going to be the BJJ game. The second it hits the ground, that is what it is. They survive on the ground in MMA because of BJJ. They stand up in MMA because of bjj... it goes on forever.

What you see less of are flashy subs, quick transitions and so on, unless its a really high level black belt - in which case the ground is typically avoided because you lose. You see less of it because EVERYONE is learning bjj, and because wrestlers etc aren't stupid enough to fall for basic things anymore.

Everyone has BJJ in their arsenal now, especially as a defensive. So it doesnt stare you straight in the face, many use it as a defensive weapon to understand the ground game and get out of it.
 
Its not about BJJ vs Wrestling, its about BJJers vs Wrestlers.

Wrestlers are usually fit as hell, they have a solid discipline and training regime and are easier to mould into a fighter.

This is an overgeneralization as you have plenty of BJJ guys that turn out into great fighters, but they are the ones that learn wrestling and learn striking. Anyway im expecting Roy Nelson to walk through Shane Carwin, but only because Nelson is an intelligent fighter with good cardio and good striking.
 
I think BJJ is alive and well, what died is fighters competing in MMA without any sort of BJJ skillset. Now that it's so mainstream and taught to fighters at all levels, submissions aren't seen as often because everybody is becoming well-versed in the art.

Avoiding a submission is also a lot easier in MMA because there is no gi; explosive squirming, scrambles, and keeping the limbs tight to the body can be effective at keeping even the most basically trained fighter out of a lot of trouble with decent BJJ players.
 
edco76 said:
Yes and no. It will always be around but I think the days of "bjj guys" winning belts may be over. I think it has evolved to a point where you really need it for defense but offensively, it just doesnt win fights like it used to. I think for most top 10-20 guys, going into a fight now with a strategy of submitting a guy is a fool's errand. Its just too hard and guys are too well rounded.
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I agree with this completely. A pure BJJ player has little chance of getting the fight to the ground against anyone who doesn't want it there.

Wrestlers who can strike or strikers who can wrestle will continue to be at the top of the food chain in mma with few exceptions.
 
I'm glad to see so many people with serious responses to this question. I wasn't by any means trying to say wrestling was better, it just seems that the way things are structured wrestlers seem to be running the show the last couple years. Honstly I find that fact a little depressing because the popularity of it, and how many wrestlers there are in the US seems to be homoginiseing a sport that was built on the idea of multiple styles.
 
OhTheHumanity said:
I think BJJ is alive and well, what died is fighters competing in MMA without any sort of BJJ skillset. Now that it's so mainstream and taught to fighters at all levels, submissions aren't seen as often because everybody is becoming well-versed in the art.

Avoiding a submission is also a lot easier in MMA because there is no gi; explosive squirming, scrambles, and keeping the limbs tight to the body can be effective at keeping even the most basically trained fighter out of a lot of trouble with decent BJJ players.
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Also the rules work against BJJ in a MMA fight. The rounds are short and you start standing at the beginning of each round. So you don't really have much time to work for a submission finish during a fight. Plus if the fight ends up on the ground near the cage that can work against a submission finish.
 
Gerbiljiujitsu said:
the thread title reminds me of the Colbert Report when he would ask Democratic party members "President Bush, great president or greatest president?"

I think that it's all going to mold together in the next 10 years. There will be some traditionalists but the most successful people that compete in grappling will be hybrid grapplers.
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No matter what the topic is or how he feels about it, the gerbil always has a nice calm answer that's productive to the thread. It amazes me.

Anyway I don't think jiujitsu will ever "die" because it's very effective. Wrestling has been around for thousands of years in one form or another...because it's very effective.

One thing I have noticed is that wrestlers often want to power into positions while bjj players are more fluid and kinda wait for positions to be available. To be a successful grappler you need to have that ability to be explosive and impose your will, but also the ability to move with your opponent and guide the fight to where you want it.

My two cents.
 
what a dumb post. god i hate how many this is better than that posts there are per week.....

name a dominate pure wrestler out there who hasn't trained in some form of bjj or other submission grappling art to get where they are today. it just doesn't happen... if you don't train submissions, submission defense, concepts of attacking in guard your MMA career will end very fast and painfully..

in order to be a power house today in MMA you need to have good striking, good takedown defense, good submission defense, and when things go wrong the ability to threaten or stand up when you get put on your back.. all of which require a ton of cross training.

name a title holder today who doesn't train some from of submission grappling... in fact i'd go so far as to say most if not all cross train into several.
 
Proteus900 said:
I'm glad to see so many people with serious responses to this question. I wasn't by any means trying to say wrestling was better, it just seems that the way things are structured wrestlers seem to be running the show the last couple years. Honstly I find that fact a little depressing because the popularity of it, and how many wrestlers there are in the US seems to be homoginiseing a sport that was built on the idea of multiple styles.
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You should not be depressed you should now work on wrestling too. BJJ came in and lets be frank, had it easy at the start.

The lab tested the style, went back tweaked and lab tested some more and then boom UFC 1 and 2. Now that fighters have had the chance to examine and counter an evolution has come into play. You have guys that are pretty damn competent at everything so you have to be well rounded. The idea of being a pro mma fighter with one thing in your toolbox is over. If you are an expert submission guy you had better be able to get the fight to the ground. If you are an expert striker you had better be able to stay standing, thats all wrestling. You can be a great wrestler that can stay standing or get on the ground but you had better have a way to threaten in the range you are fighting in. It's all about expanding your skill set.
 
mtruitt76 said:
Also the rules work against BJJ in a MMA fight. The rounds are short and you start standing at the beginning of each round....
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Oh please, lets reverse human evolution just for you...lol.
 
IMHO BJJ and wrestling will come together to form a more top dominant game. The guard will NEVER go away and you will still see subs from the back, but I think the emphasis will be on top game. Look at mirs response after the congo win. "I don't want a guy that big and strong pounding on me again" (more or less)
 
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