Is Ju-Jitsu dead or dying?

[knoxpk]

IMHO BJJ and wrestling will come together to form a more top dominant game. The guard will NEVER go away and you will still see subs from the back, but I think the emphasis will be on top game. Look at mirs response after the congo win. "I don't want a guy that big and strong pounding on me again" (more or less)

bjj is not dead and niether is sambo,catch and judo.

Bjj will never die as long as submissions will be in the game.

True, true and true /thread!

 

[kramer733]

Jiu jitsu is a 2000 year old martial art. It's going to be living until the human race dies. Even then, you see alot of the moves from other grappling arts as well.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I agree with this completely. A pure BJJ player has little chance of getting the fight to the ground against anyone who doesn't want it there.

Wrestlers who can strike or strikers who can wrestle will continue to be at the top of the food chain in mma with few exceptions.

mmmm.... at the top of the food chain with few exceptions??? lets see


UFC

HW Wrestler
LHW Striker/bjj
MW Striker/bjj
WW wrestler/bjj
LW wrestler/striker
FW Striker bjj
BT wrestler striker

SF
HW striker/bjj
LHW striker/bjj
MW bjj/striker
WW bjj/boxer
LW wrestler

I think there are lots more than few exceptions at the top of the food chain....

Take in consideration the ammount of wrestlers vs bjj ground based guys in each org, and you will find that saying" few exceptions" its pretty damm ridiculous...

 

[redaxe]

mmmm.... at the top of the food chain with few exceptions??? lets see

UFC

HW Wrestler
LHW Striker/bjj
MW Striker/bjj
WW wrestler/bjj
LW wrestler/striker
FW Striker bjj
BT wrestler striker

Keep in mind that GSP never even wrestled on his school team. He really learned his wrestling techniques after he was already an MMA fighter. His first martial art was karate and then he started learning BJJ and submission wrestling later when he started training for MMA fights. He's not really even a wrestler so much as a striker and BJJ/submission grappler with really good takedowns.

 

[ArchAngelos]

The way I see it is that there are FOUR corner legs to the MMA fighter's table: proper boxing, muay thai/dutch kickboxing, wrestling control and take downs and Jiu Jitsu defense and submissions.

If you kick one leg out from under a table and then apply pressure to the top... what happens? Anyone?

Saying that Jiu Jitsu is dying in MMA is ridiculous.

 

[Drew Foster]

What's crazy is that even the opinion that subs are happening less and not true.

Over the last 5-7 years, about all fights end like this:

30% KO
30% Sub
40% Decision

There have been slight fluctuations every year, but that's just about how it has stayed. The Triangle, RNC, Guillotine, and Armbar are the big 4 in MMA, while the Kimura, Arm Triangle, Heel-Hook, Anaconda, Darce, Kneebar, etc. then the real eclectic subs like the Peruvian Necktie follow after that.

The pattern is staying pretty similar.

If anything surprises me, it's that even though Anacondas and Darces are becoming almost as common as the Kimura in MMA, leglocks are still WAY low on the charts. By far the least common submission, and it seems people aren't using them more, even in 2010.

 

[Supereem]

Jiu jitsu is a 2000 year old martial art. It's going to be living until the human race dies. Even then, you see alot of the moves from other grappling arts as well.

Eassssy now.

 

[redaxe]

What's crazy is that even the opinion that subs are happening less and not true.

Over the last 5-7 years, about all fights end like this:

30% KO
30% Sub
40% Decision

There have been slight fluctuations every year, but that's just about how it has stayed. The Triangle, RNC, Guillotine, and Armbar are the big 4 in MMA, while the Kimura, Arm Triangle, Heel-Hook, Anaconda, Darce, Kneebar, etc. then the real eclectic subs like the Peruvian Necktie follow after that.

The pattern is staying pretty similar.

If anything surprises me, it's that even though Anacondas and Darces are becoming almost as common as the Kimura in MMA, leglocks are still WAY low on the charts. By far the least common submission, and it seems people aren't using them more, even in 2010.

I'm honestly really surprised that heel hooks aren't more commonly used in MMA. If I had an MMA fight I would just immediately dive for a leg and try to heel hook the shit out of the guy, especially if he happened to slip on the Bud Light logo. Just like Paul Harris. Heel hook is the most terrifying submission in existence.

 

[redaxe]

hey guys so is jiu-jitsu completely extinct, or is it just dying a slow, miserable death?

 

[The Reed]

hey guys so is jiu-jitsu completely extinct, or is it just dying a slow, miserable death?

If it is Paul Sass didn't get the memo.

 

[YeahBee]

I think the main aspect or wrestling's success is that it takes advantage of the point system. In a fight with no limit wrestling would be fairly useless since rarely does it come with a KO.

In a no rules setting wrestlers would rule

it is more tiring to be underneath, you are working against gravity

second wrestlers would love to be able to do knees on the ground and headbutt like the old days

 

[tomrichugpeltho]

no

 

[YeahBee]

Keep in mind that GSP never even wrestled on his school team. He really learned his wrestling techniques after he was already an MMA fighter. His first martial art was karate and then he started learning BJJ and submission wrestling later when he started training for MMA fights. He's not really even a wrestler so much as a striker and BJJ/submission grappler with really good takedowns.

no that isn't true

he started to train wrestling when he was 12 or 13 years old, together with boxing

so to say that he is jsut a karate guy is misleading, he wanted to be an MMA fighter so he sought out other arts early



and BJJ later (think I have read that he didn't have any BJJ training before his first MMA fight at 16 years old, makes sense this would be just a couple of years after UFC 1)

would his high school even have wrestling?

 

[ThatOGD0n]

Dead or dying- No
Having its growth slowed a little- Maybe, but slow growth is still growth.

American grappling will always be wrestler dominant. Kids start at a young age, its cheaper, more widespread and it gets you more chicks in HS.

This.
And all the other reasons stated in teh above quote.
I have a few nephews (7-8) that I've been teaching what little wrestling I know (relative to my coaches knowledge) to.
They love it and it's pretty cool to watch them work the moves I taught them.
But, when I instruct some Jiu-jitsu to them it goes way over their heads.
telling them to "use their hips" to flip onto their stomach after being taken down apparently is a lot easier for them to grasp than telling them to hip escape if they get mounted.

 

[thegreenblender]

The guys who have heavier BJJ backgrounds in MMA now and are succeeding are really good strikers. The striking on the feet gives allows them to get off and score til they are inevitably taken down with their shitty takedown defense...Anderson, Shogun to an extent. But their dangerous guard allows them to pop back up or snag a quick sub. In many ways, their striking is their takedown defense, you see this especially with Aldo who threatens with knees off the shot, and makes guys wary by making them pay for trying to clinch with him.

This is kind of a natural evolution since lots of good BJJ guys are of lankier frames, and have good bodies for striking, but are too weak and sickly to develop really strong takedowns. Good for an occasional trip or whatever, but with the exception of what, maybe a guy like Askren, guys without a powerful build rarely become dominant takedown guys.

 

[Bullheaded]

The guys who have heavier BJJ backgrounds in MMA now and are succeeding are really good strikers. The striking on the feet gives allows them to get off and score til they are inevitably taken down with their shitty takedown defense...Anderson, Shogun to an extent. But their dangerous guard allows them to pop back up or snag a quick sub. In many ways, their striking is their takedown defense, you see this especially with Aldo who threatens with knees off the shot, and makes guys wary by making them pay for trying to clinch with him.

This is kind of a natural evolution since lots of good BJJ guys are of lankier frames, and have good bodies for striking, but are too weak and sickly to develop really strong takedowns. Good for an occasional trip or whatever, but with the exception of what, maybe a guy like Askren, guys without a powerful build rarely become dominant takedown guys.

Powerful =/ stocky. You can be powerful and lanky, look at Fitch for instance, or Jones, or Askren, even Gustafsson is very powerful I'm sure you could find countless examples.

 

[bjjmedic]

No BJJ isn't dead or dying. Previous to modern MMA, martial arts were on these separate islands where they evolved in very specific ways to deal with their environment. What MMA has done is throw the islands together and now the martial arts are having to evolve again.

It is an arm race, for a while BJJ is on top, then strikers, then wrestlers, then some hybrids or whatever. One area becoming dominant forces the others to adapt to the new environment to survive. BJJ will evolve.

 

[fourfif**]

If it is Paul Sass didn't get the memo.

I was thinking of this thread while watching that fight. That's how to impose
a BJJ game on an unwilling opponnent.

 

[StevenCrowder]

would his high school even have wrestling?

No. I was raised in Montreal and wrestling was non-existant. We didn't have it at my highschool (with the exception of a 2 week mandatory course in 8th grade gym class) nor at any of my friends in the area.

That's partly why GSP is so good. He had to seek out the best. In Montreal you either don't wrestle at all, or you wrestle with the olympic team. There are no wrestling hobbyists to be found there.

 

[Freezing Winds**]

HUH? go watch ufc1 jitz is never gonna die

actually, it is

go watch <insert any mma event here> jitz is never gonna die.