Is Jon Jones the Best MMA Wrestler In the UFC? (POLL)

[ectera]

No. Weidman is a better MMA wrestler than them both.

Weidman barely was able to keep Machida down.

 

[Kingfarthur]

And take downs. His overall wrestling game in MMA is superb.

Yeah, its among the best ever. I'd say top 3 of all time, if not the best. DC couldn't do shit in the grappling. Incredible.

 

[Got GOAT]

So where are you getting he is a terrible wrestler from?

Don't put words into my mouth. My point was (and still is), DC's shot is nonexistent. He's overly reliant on clinch-based takedowns and once those are shut down, or he can't get in at all, his superior wrestling is basically moot.

Weidman barely was able to keep Machida down.

Weidman had a broken hand when he fought and beat Machida. He also took him down plenty and was able to keep him there while attempting subs and landing GnP. Do I need to post other GIFs to show you that? Not to mention that Lyoto is one of the hardest fighters to take down and keep there in the sport.

 

[HOLA]

Don't put words into my mouth. My point was (and still is), DC's shot is nonexistent. He's overly reliant on clinch-based takedowns and once those are shut down, or he can't get in at all, his superior wrestling is basically moot.



Weidman had a broken hand when he fought and beat Machida. He also took him down plenty and was able to keep him there while attempting subs and landing GnP. Do I need to post other GIFs to show you that? Not to mention that Lyoto is one of the hardest fighters to take down and keep there in the sport.

Hey, imbecile. Read the quote of yours that I quoted. You said "GSP is actually a terrible wrestler."

 

[Got GOAT]

Hey, imbecile. Read the quote of yours that I quoted. You said "GSP is actually a terrible wrestler."

Oh, you meant GSP? Yes, he is a terrible wrestler. Ask Chael, actually. In MMA he's a good "wrestler" because of his takedowns. You never wrestled, did you? If his top control was great then he wouldn't have needed to get 10 takedowns per round, think about it dummy. His TDD is great and his double legs have always been the best. Beyond that, his wrestling isn't good. He'd tell you that himself.

 

[edirp]

No. Weidman is a better MMA wrestler than them both. DC has no wrestling shot for a single or double leg, which is exactly what I said before these two fought. He couldn't get his clinch-based TDs and as a result lost.

I like the way you think. You are absolutely right. I'm right. Most of these people are just Jones fanboys and are bias.

Chris Weidman is without a doubt the greatest wrestler that MMA has ever seen.

 

[HOLA]

Oh, you meant GSP? Yes, he is a terrible wrestler. Ask Chael, actually. In MMA he's a good "wrestler" because of his takedowns. You never wrestled, did you? If his top control was great then he wouldn't have needed to get 10 takedowns per round, think about it dummy. His TDD is great and his double legs have always been the best. Beyond that, his wrestling isn't good. He'd tell you that himself.

Ok ...I'm thinking. And I think he's never needed 10 takedowns per round.

 

[trott]

there is this thing called cardio

right, dc was so gassed in the first round when jon took him down and stuffed all his takedowns.

 

[trott]

I like the way you think. You are absolutely right. I'm right. Most of these people are just Jones fanboys and are bias.

Chris Weidman is without a doubt the greatest wrestler that MMA has ever seen.

what legit grappler has weidman ever faced?

 

[Got GOAT]

Ok ...I'm thinking. And I think he's never needed 10 takedowns per round.

It obviously was an exaggeration, but the fact remains, he typically needed multiple takedowns per round. Why? He couldn't hold his opponents down and control them for entire rounds like you'll see guys like Phil Davis are good at (their top control). GSP is the best "MMA wrestler" if you just look at his two strengths, his excellent shot and setups (for getting his infamous double leg) and his TDD. Here's what Chael had to say about GSP's wrestling...

Georges St. Pierre has one wrestling technique, Georges St. Pierre could never push and pull and pummel and set a guy up. He has one technique, which is the double leg. Now off of that double leg he's got about three different setups he uses to get to that position, and he's got about six different finishes depending on what his opponent does when he gets there. I would call him the best wrestler in MMA, but I would also go out and go 'Georges knows extremely little about wrestling'. If you want to go into a wrestling match, Georges is not the guy you want to coach and train you.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/3/9...en-mma-wrestling-interview-takedowns-ufc-news

Scoring takedowns with ease and staying on your feet by having great TDD does not make you a great wrestler, and any pure wrestler knows as much and will tell you the same thing. In MMA, getting TDs and making use of excellent TDD are king so it can be called that in this sport without rustling too many feathers.

 

[jeremyemilio]

No. Weidman is a better MMA wrestler than them both. DC has no wrestling shot for a single or double leg, which is exactly what I said before these two fought. He couldn't get his clinch-based TDs and as a result lost.

He got the single several times. He couldn't finish it. You think that's because he doesn't have a good 'wrestling shot for a single.' But that's only because you have not a sweet clue what a 'single leg' is or how it functions.

But you're also the guy who thinks you just watched a fight between two members of the same 'sub-race'... soooooo...

 

[jeremyemilio]

Active yes, but IMO GSP was better.

... and this.

 

[Got GOAT]

Weidman barely was able to keep Machida down.

He got the single several times. He couldn't finish it. You think that's because he doesn't have a good 'wrestling shot for a single.' But that's only because you have not a sweet clue what a 'single leg' is or how it functions.

But you're also the guy who thinks you just watched a fight between two members of the same 'sub-race'... soooooo...

His entries for grabbing a single are predictable, I've said this before. He also only targets the lead leg and never the rear, while Weidman will target both (he did this in his last fight against Machida). As you know, I also said DC's shot is shit, and it certainly is (which is why we almost never see it and when we do he's only half arm's length away). You tried to laugh it off but he was just outwrestled by a JUCO guy (champion, but still JUCO). I guess it isn't that funny now?

To be a 2x Olympic Freestyle wrestler and only have two or three finishes for his singles and high-c's means that he's limited with them. He did try for the trip tonight, but he could've shot low (John Smith style) and chased the ankle and drove through Jones/hip heisted and changed direction before driving, or did a push-pull, along with many other ways he could've potentially finished/tried to finish those single legs. Weidman doesn't have this problem and Weidman actually can shoot for TDs well.

 

[p4p1]

its more because of his style, he doesn't care about tdd as much.

This is true he so confident that he can scramble back up he doesn't seem to worry too much.

 

[jeremyemilio]

His entries for grabbing a single are predictable, I've said this before. He also only targets the lead leg and never the rear, while Weidman will target both (he did this in his last fight against Machida). As you know, I also said DC's shot is shit, and it certainly is (which is why we almost never see it and when we do he's only half arm's length away). You tried to laugh it off but he was just outwrestled by a JUCO guy (champion, but still JUCO). I guess it isn't that funny now?

To be a 2x Olympic Freestyle wrestler and only have two or three finishes for his singles and high-c's means that he's limited with them. He did try for the trip tonight, but he could've shot low (John Smith style) and chased the ankle and drove through Jones/hip heisted and changed direction before driving, or did a push-pull, along with many other ways he could've potentially finished/tried to finish those single legs. Weidman doesn't have this problem and Weidman actually can shoot for TDs well.

Ummm... yeah... that's a single leg. Who in hell shoots a high single on the back leg? He likes the high single because he's always been an undersized wrestler who doesn't want to end up underneath the sprawl of a bigger, stronger guy. And he has no problem getting in on the leg, and got in on it several times with Jones. He generally has good finishes off of it, too. Jones is just another kind on beast.

And no one in MMA is going to be doing many low singles... ridiculous to think you can get away with that in an MMA fight against a skilled opponent, especially "John Smith style"... Couture did one on an old fat boxer once.

 

[Got GOAT]

Ummm... yeah... that's a single leg. Who in hell shoots a high single on the back leg? He likes the high single because he's always been an undersized wrestler who doesn't want to end up underneath the sprawl of a bigger, stronger guy. And he has no problem getting in on the leg, and got in on it several times with Jones. He generally has good finishes off of it, too. Jones is just another kind on beast.

And no one in MMA is going to be doing many low singles... ridiculous to think you can get away with that in an MMA fight against a skilled opponent, especially "John Smith style"... Couture did one on an old fat boxer once.

You've never seen a rear leg single in the form of an ankle pick? You've never seen a wrestler fake with a knee tap, then turn the corner for the rear, or even shoot in straight for the rear leg? It's been done in Freestyle, MMA and Folkstyle. It isn't common at all but it's a good thing to mix it up and get opponents with, since they don't know which leg you're going for. If you do it fast enough you'll shock the shit out of them, which Weidman came close to getting against Machida but IIRC he stepped out because his rear leg was just too far back (Machida uses a wide stance). It isn't uncommon, in fact, the Near-Arm Far-Leg takedown in wrestling targets it specifically, and whether you make them step back or not you can still get it.

[YT]TLDsBc3rSDk[/YT]

As for the low single, I've seen junior high school kids repeatedly get it on competent scholastic wrestlers, it's all about drilling it, getting your grips right and finishing. If you can shoot in quick enough, at the proper time, and you have viable means to finish it then it's not much different than a mid level or high single. I've seen many of them get stepped out of but that's because their grips were shallow or the timing or shot speed just wasn't there. It's rarely seen in MMA and that makes the chances of landing it better, not lower (since the opponent won't plan on having to try to defend against it).

Old man Couture did use it against Toney. Good luck trying to effectively sprawl on a low single if they've already got your heel or ankle, trying to control the head by shucking down or framing out and cross-facing, or trying to time a knee on them while shooting. They'll be too low and the opponent will have to either step out, limp out or pivot (or roll backward, split etc), and they won't be able to do the first three if your grips are in deep. The most common defense to it that John Smith himself recommends is jumping over your opponent and grabbing their ankle, where you'll be fighting for position while scrambling. In MMA, this means that if a fighter wanted to do that counter specifically then they'll need to know this counter, the wrestling that goes into it and be a decent scrambler to make it work (and I doubt many could, being uncommon to begin with). My original point is that the lead leg can be attacked low, mid and high, in fact both legs can. Even if the opponent can defend against it, they won't know what you'll be trying to do next.

 

[Dart Feld]

Jones is somehow penalized in this because he didn't need to pass Machida's guard, minutes of top control, or multiple TDs to defeat him.

Eesh

 

[Rulio Gracie II]

If it weren't for the Gus fight, I would probably say yes. I think Weidman's the only stud wrestler left who hasn't been taken down yet.

 

[jeremyemilio]

You've never seen a rear leg single in the form of an ankle pick? You've never seen a wrestler fake with a knee tap, then turn the corner for the rear, or even shoot in straight for the rear leg? It's been done in Freestyle, MMA and Folkstyle. It isn't common at all but it's a good thing to mix it up and get opponents with, since they don't know which leg you're going for. If you do it fast enough you'll shock the shit out of them, which Weidman came close to getting against Machida but IIRC he stepped out because his rear leg was just too far back (Machida uses a wide stance). It isn't uncommon, in fact, the Near-Arm Far-Leg takedown in wrestling targets it specifically, and whether you make them step back or not you can still get it.

[YT]TLDsBc3rSDk[/YT]

As for the low single, I've seen junior high school kids repeatedly get it on competent scholastic wrestlers, it's all about drilling it, getting your grips right and finishing. If you can shoot in quick enough, at the proper time, and you have viable means to finish it then it's not much different than a mid level or high single. I've seen many of them get stepped out of but that's because their grips were shallow or the timing or shot speed just wasn't there. It's rarely seen in MMA and that makes the chances of landing it better, not lower (since the opponent won't plan on having to try to defend against it).

Old man Couture did use it against Toney. Good luck trying to effectively sprawl on a low single if they've already got your heel or ankle, trying to control the head by shucking down or framing out and cross-facing, or trying to time a knee on them while shooting. They'll be too low and the opponent will have to either step out, limp out or pivot (or roll backward, split etc), and they won't be able to do the first three if your grips are in deep. The most common defense to it that John Smith himself recommends is jumping over your opponent and grabbing their ankle, where you'll be fighting for position while scrambling. In MMA, this means that if a fighter wanted to do that counter specifically then they'll need to know this counter, the wrestling that goes into it and be a decent scrambler to make it work (and I doubt many could, being uncommon to begin with). My original point is that the lead leg can be attacked low, mid and high, in fact both legs can. Even if the opponent can defend against it, they won't know what you'll be trying to do next.

An ankle pick isn't a single leg... and if you want to get an ankle pick, damned straight it's important to make your opponent step back. That's what makes it an ankle pick. If your opponent doesn't step back, getting a grip on his ankle isn't going to do shit because he'll shift his weight to his other leg and shake you off.

Fake knee tap to 'back leg' single is similar. The whole point of faking the knee tap is to get your opponent to step back with his lead leg... at which point it is no longer his lead leg, making his 'back' leg vulnerable.

I know that a low single can be perfected and made effective in a wrestling match... but it's much too risky in an MMA fight. Screw it up and you're on your face on the mat with your opponent on top of you. That's why you never see it. Not because no one knows how to do it.

Anyway, I don't much remember our back and forth about this, and I'm not sure that I ever said DC would be able to take JJ down. But I remember that a portion of your premise was that DC wouldn't be able to close the distance because he wasn't good at getting in on an opponent's legs. He did that just fine with JJ. He simply wasn't able to finish.

However, I also know the fight in general was a toss up for me. You didn't think it was a toss up and thought DC would have nothing for JJ in the wrestling department. Props to you on that. You were right.

 

[MMACroatia]

Cormier has great single legs,the thing is Jones is too long and has great base to get taken down on double/single leg almost impossible.Jones took DC down in 4th round when DC didnt defend at all and his legs were right next to each other,no matter are you Olympian or street warrior you are going down.Then in the 5th same thing Jones goes in clinch for double but this time DC defends and spreads his legs like he needed to do round before and stops Jon Jones.Jones took him down because DC did things wrong and got back up,still defended takedowns well(jons shot on him) etc.