is it "wrong" to sleep with a married person?

[chardog]

I agree with this, that a third party would help. However, she flat out refuses to see a third party with me. As I said, she does not feel that we have a problem, that any problem there is, is my problem not hers. She told me this the last time we fought about it.

I think everyone runs into the inevitable "no sex" routine.

I know it's happened to me even before marriage, with ex's. Knowing what I do now, you've got to overcome it.

I've come to have a real effective system to overcome big issues in my house. Write it down! Make an outline, make bullet points, present and resolve the issue.

Dont get side tracked in discussions, stick with an outline that's comprehensive (may take more than one page).

the less you have general fights around the house, the more sex you tend to have..... and the "I'm tired" bullshit doesnt fly around my place.

Create a schedule for sex, nevermind the romance crap, woo, and cuck crap.

The longest I've gone without sex in my marriage was probably 2 months..... and since then, probably 5-7 days. Schedule it!!!

come up with an agreement for sex, kill ALL excuses, demand it be done. If you have an agreement, and wife tries to break agreement, you mention it, and you have sex, let her know you intend to keep the agreement.

pay to get your house cleaned, pay for take out, kill the internet, do what it takes so that wife has nothing to do BUT sex.

I literally have people that come clean my home, eat takeout on those nights/use paper plates, have a robotic vaccuum cleaner, in the name of sex. I kid you not, I take the issue very seriously, and it has not been easy figuring this out, but damn it, I had enough a long time back and put my mind to it.

 

[Mike]

A lot of good points here, but you have also missed quite a bit. Perhaps due to your youth. I'm 47, so I am not as far removed from these things as many on the forum. A lot of these things I lived with as I grew up with my parents and grandparents.

You are right that a few generations back, that divorce was a huge social taboo. But you know what else was? Being old and not married. Especially for women. An older unmarried woman was a 'spinster' or 'old maid'. HUGE social stigma attached to that. An older unmarried man was merely a bachelor. Very little stigma was attached by comparison.

You are very right about the evaporating sense of community, and that is to our detriment. But even that has a lot more to do with economic factors vs social factors. 2 generations ago, a father working a 9-5 in a sears or as a garbage collector, and a stay at home Mom was 'middle class'. Now 2 full time working parents are barely making ends meet a lot of the time.

You talk about how the legal system heavily favors women in divorces, and perhaps that is true. It's important to recognize though that this is a perfectly normal pendulum swing from generations past. My grandmother got married in 1944 and was married for 70 years. If she had got divorced in 1954 she would have been completely and absolutely fucked. Completely at the mercy of her husband. The social expectation at that time would have mandated that she take the children and move back in with her parents, if that were economically feasible. Otherwise the expectation would be that she would more or less starve.

The social stigma you mentioned, along with the economic realities divorced women faced in the past, kept absolutely miserable couples married and in the womens case, often medicated.

All this said, I would absolutely agree with you that the pain threshold seems to be extremely low in married couples today. They seem to check out of marriage a lot easier. And I think this is a direct result of intolerance of infidelity, and the lessening social stigma of divorce, as well as the lessening economic consequence for women.

The rate at which married men and women cheat is pretty close. Somewhere between 60%-65%. Men with a slight edge.

Here is what is different now though. The % of people getting caught cheating is going up dramatically. With all the technology today, It's just easier to get caught. Though women seem to be much better at not getting caught than men.

What to do? Here is some advice from an old man that has been very happily married for a long time. Men tend to cheat a lot more when they are sexually dissatisfied and women tend to cheat more when they are emotionally dissatisfied. So men- Pay attention to your wives. Be interested and affectionate. Share your feelings occasionally, as painful as that might be. And ladies, keep in shape, present well, fuck your husbands and suck their dicks- A LOT!!

Good points as usual. I think the legal system has swung so far in favor of women as an attempt to correct the huge imbalance in power and earning potential generations ago.


However now that men and women are basically equal, the current system doesn't help men out all that much.


It's partially financial, but a lot of it is the fact that there's little stigma if you divorce anymore. That combined with how easy it is to meet people online makes it much easier to just bail.

We see that with the huge number of women initiating divorces now, merely because they're bored.


In my marriage and my friends marriages the divorces weren't a plot to take our money, as we really don't have that much. They just got bored.


It's so easy for women to get attention online that boosts their ego to the point of narcissism. You're no longer limited to the people in your immediate social circle.


You can just jump online and there's an instant echo chamber telling you that you can do better.


My close friend is currently in a long torturous relationship with an overly entitled sea cow. She's far below average in appearance, mentally unstable, and has a child.


Yet between the internet and her friends she's convinced she's some martyr, always bitching and demanding more.

 

[Mike]

This this this. Show love and attention to your lady. Tell her you love her often. Tell her she's hot, beautiful, etc often. Tell her you're lucky to have her and that she chose YOU to be her husband. Tell her you want her and need her and no one else and she'll feel good about herself and your marriage together and she'll never stray.

This sounds so logical and is how I've approached it, and how some of my friends have approached it.


I can say for us it's only given them an inflated ego and made them feel like they had "won" the relationship, and lead to us getting taken for granted since they didn't feel like we "deserved" them.


Many women constantly push for power and control in the relationship but they don't WANT it, they want you to fight them for it.


Essentially they take that doting affection as a sign of weakness

 

[chardog]

This sounds so logical and is how I've approached it, and how some of my friends have approached it.


I can say for us it's only given them an inflated ego and made them feel like they had "won" the relationship, and lead to us getting taken for granted since they didn't feel like we "deserved" them.


Many women constantly push for power and control in the relationship but they don't WANT it, they want you to fight them for it.


Essentially they take that doting affection as a sign of weakness

no more than once a week imo.

 

[koolinkunming]

Yep. And let me tell you, it is amazing just how horny a deeply emotionally satisfied woman can get. They will do things to you and for you that would make Caligula blush.

I know EXACTLY what you mean, you have no idea.

 

[Banchan]

i cant help but notice that there seems to be a lot of angry sexless divorced or on the verge of divorce married men that said yes.

 

[Reign Supreme]

Voted Yes although I did it before and it was awesome.... no regrets or guilt

 

[Mike]

i cant help but notice that there seems to be a lot of angry sexless divorced or on the verge of divorce married men that said yes.

There are a lot of angry divorced or on the verge of divorce men here, but you knew this.

 

[Banchan]

There are a lot of angry divorced or on the verge of divorce men here, but you knew this.

do you think it adds to resentment that you were faithful during your marital problems? kind of sad to read these stories. maybe you should just said well heck im going to get me a girlfriend and if wife splits i can monkey branch like her.

 

[koolinkunming]

This sounds so logical and is how I've approached it, and how some of my friends have approached it.


I can say for us it's only given them an inflated ego and made them feel like they had "won" the relationship, and lead to us getting taken for granted since they didn't feel like we "deserved" them.


Many women constantly push for power and control in the relationship but they don't WANT it, they want you to fight them for it.


Essentially they take that doting affection as a sign of weakness

There's a difference between being a pushover and giving your lady confidence and happiness in your marriage. Positive comments in her direction doesn't mean you become a doormat. If you do it in a way that makes her also want to be closer to you and do things for you as well as doing things for her, you won't run into this problem.

Also, constantly giving her physical affection is just as important. Be aggressive sexually (in a positive way of course), like taking her in a moment of spontaneity after you get home from work or in the middle of the day, showing her you want her, keeping her guessing and all that. Not just sex, but also a touch of her hand, grab her ass out of the blue, a kiss on the forehead or whatever. It asserts your position as her lover and she won't see you as weak or a doormat. She'll see you as quite the opposite.

That's what I mean. It works.

 

[Mike]

do you think it adds to resentment that you were faithful during your marital problems? kind of sad to read these stories.

I think so. For myself I know it does. I took my wedding vows very seriously. When she just ran off at the first sign of trouble and refused to try to work it out at all, it really surprised me.


She literally packed a bag and left and wouldn't even talk to me for weeks. When I finally got her to sit down and talk to me for ten minutes about the end of our marriage she basically said she didn't love me anymore, so she felt it was pointless to try to work on it at all. Well ok then.


My best friend got divorced a few years before me, and I remember he seemed most upset that his wife just split with no attempt to work it out or honor her vows.


I sympathized but didn't truly understand until the same thing happened to me. To put that kind of effort into a relationship emotionally, financially, putting someone else's happiness above yours. Saying all these vows to stay together no matter what in front of family and friends, only to have them bail at the first difficulty like you're in high school....


Yeah it seems to have soured my outlook on relationships permanently. I used to be a bit of a romantic. I've had my heart broken before, but the failure of a marriage is something else when you take the commitment seriously.

 

[Mike]

There's a difference between being a pushover and giving your lady confidence and happiness in your marriage. Positive comments in her direction doesn't mean you become a doormat. If you do it in a way that makes her also want to be closer to you and do things for you as well as doing things for her, you won't run into this problem.

Also, constantly giving her physical affection is just as important. Be aggressive sexually (in a positive way of course), like taking her in a moment of spontaneity after you get home from work or in the middle of the day, showing her you want her, keeping her guessing and all that. Not just sex, but also a touch of her hand, grab her ass out of the blue, a kiss on the forehead or whatever. It asserts your position as her lover and she won't see you as weak or a doormat. She'll see you as quite the opposite.

That's what I mean. It works.

Yeah I tried stuff like that. Didn't work for me. Glad it's working out for you though

 

[koolinkunming]

Yeah I tried stuff like that. Didn't work for me. Glad it's working out for you though

It's gotta be constant (or consistent at least) so she's satisfied and doesn't have time to think of anyone else. How can a marriage turn into a sexless marriage if you be assertive, keeping her interest? Just gotta know how to do that. Putty in your hand if you figure that out.

My wife sometimes gives me this look, shakes her head and says "You're always trying to fuck me" or "What the fuck is wrong with you? You're always hard" and I keep her interest. She returns it in kind. I dunno how else to explain it. Maybe it's just chemistry.

 

[Alphafail]

A lot of good points here, but you have also missed quite a bit. Perhaps due to your youth. I'm 47, so I am not as far removed from these things as many on the forum. A lot of these things I lived with as I grew up with my parents and grandparents.

You are right that a few generations back, that divorce was a huge social taboo. But you know what else was? Being old and not married. Especially for women. An older unmarried woman was a 'spinster' or 'old maid'. HUGE social stigma attached to that. An older unmarried man was merely a bachelor. Very little stigma was attached by comparison.

You are very right about the evaporating sense of community, and that is to our detriment. But even that has a lot more to do with economic factors vs social factors. 2 generations ago, a father working a 9-5 in a sears or as a garbage collector, and a stay at home Mom was 'middle class'. Now 2 full time working parents are barely making ends meet a lot of the time.

You talk about how the legal system heavily favors women in divorces, and perhaps that is true. It's important to recognize though that this is a perfectly normal pendulum swing from generations past. My grandmother got married in 1944 and was married for 70 years. If she had got divorced in 1954 she would have been completely and absolutely fucked. Completely at the mercy of her husband. The social expectation at that time would have mandated that she take the children and move back in with her parents, if that were economically feasible. Otherwise the expectation would be that she would more or less starve.

The social stigma you mentioned, along with the economic realities divorced women faced in the past, kept absolutely miserable couples married and in the womens case, often medicated.

All this said, I would absolutely agree with you that the pain threshold seems to be extremely low in married couples today. They seem to check out of marriage a lot easier. And I think this is a direct result of intolerance of infidelity, and the lessening social stigma of divorce, as well as the lessening economic consequence for women.

The rate at which married men and women cheat is pretty close. Somewhere between 60%-65%. Men with a slight edge.

Here is what is different now though. The % of people getting caught cheating is going up dramatically. With all the technology today, It's just easier to get caught. Though women seem to be much better at not getting caught than men.

What to do? Here is some advice from an old man that has been very happily married for a long time. Men tend to cheat a lot more when they are sexually dissatisfied and women tend to cheat more when they are emotionally dissatisfied. So men- Pay attention to your wives. Be interested and affectionate. Share your feelings occasionally, as painful as that might be. And ladies, keep in shape, present well, fuck your husbands and suck their dicks- A LOT!!

Sir, I am your fan.

About the bolded part, I think it's very interesting what you say and I never really thought about it. Over the years it gradually inverted for us. He's become more needy while I'm the one pushing for sex most of the time.

 

[cooks1]

Sir, I am your fan.

About the bolded part, I think it's very interesting what you say and I never really thought about it. Over the years it gradually inverted for us. He's become more needy while I'm the one pushing for sex most of the time.

Now that is a fascinating pathology. It is a bit unusual, but I have seen it periodically in my circle of friends. And in the instances I have seen it, one of 2 things has usually happened. And in some cases both, and when that happens, the male becomes almost intolerably needy.

1) The female has become either a pretty much equal revenue producer, or the primary breadwinner in the family. When that happens, a male will occasionally become a little more clingy.

2) This one may sound a little chauvinistic, but I don't intend it that way. But if you look at aging, taken as a whole, on aggregate, purely from a physical desirability standpoint-- men age better than women. I think it is due in part to the fact that girls become physically desirable at a younger age.

That being said, there are plenty of women out there aging like fine wine. Just blossoming. And if they are married to a man that has let themselves go a little, that may rachet up the man's neediness. I am mindful of this one myself, as my wife is very attractive, and nearly 10 years younger. We kind of joke about it. It's not an issue now, but if I end up a Kieth Richards 70 and she is a Christie Brinkley 60, I hope I don't end up an needy old man. If I do, I have told my wife repeatedly to hit me over the head with a shovel, bury me in the back yard, tell everyone I'm on a trip and keep collecting my social security.

I don't know if either of these situations applies to you though.

 

[cooks1]

I think everyone runs into the inevitable "no sex" routine.

I know it's happened to me even before marriage, with ex's. Knowing what I do now, you've got to overcome it.

I've come to have a real effective system to overcome big issues in my house. Write it down! Make an outline, make bullet points, present and resolve the issue.

Dont get side tracked in discussions, stick with an outline that's comprehensive (may take more than one page).

the less you have general fights around the house, the more sex you tend to have..... and the "I'm tired" bullshit doesnt fly around my place.

Create a schedule for sex, nevermind the romance crap, woo, and cuck crap.

The longest I've gone without sex in my marriage was probably 2 months..... and since then, probably 5-7 days. Schedule it!!!

come up with an agreement for sex, kill ALL excuses, demand it be done. If you have an agreement, and wife tries to break agreement, you mention it, and you have sex, let her know you intend to keep the agreement.

pay to get your house cleaned, pay for take out, kill the internet, do what it takes so that wife has nothing to do BUT sex.

I literally have people that come clean my home, eat takeout on those nights/use paper plates, have a robotic vaccuum cleaner, in the name of sex. I kid you not, I take the issue very seriously, and it has not been easy figuring this out, but damn it, I had enough a long time back and put my mind to it.

Very sage advice there Char. Marrying so much younger, I have always been pretty lucky. But my wife was definitely NOT one of those women that got horny during pregnancy. More the opposite. From about 5 months pregnant out, sex physically repulsed her. I remember a couple of 2 month type intervals in there during those times, and it is hard to think rationally at that point.

Things got better after the deliveries, but I'd say each kid was a year old before we got back to both the frequency and 'operational tempo' we typically enjoy. You are absolutely 100% right though. You simply have to remove every feasible obstacle. I have stayed in $400 a night hotel suites less than 3 miles from my house to remove some preposterous, highly irrational obstacles.

But the good news is, and thank the maker for this--- The best way to get a woman to want to have more sex is just to have some good sex. Once they have some good sex and remember they like it, things will get better.

One other absolutely wonderful thing that has absolutely baffled me. My youngest is 4 now. When she was just over 1, I had a vasectomy. Ever since I recovered from it, our sex life has been fairly approximate to our pre-married, 'hot and heavy' period. It's like she's rewarding me for 'taking a pitch for the team'.

About a year ago, she confessed that she felt that after 2 pregnancies (plus another 2 miscarriages) it would be onerous and inequitable for me to expect her to get her tubes tied. But NEVER said this to me at the time, and she never asked me to get a vasectomy except to casually mention how fun it would be to always be able to have sex without any concern about pregnancy. So when I just went out and got a vasectomy on my own, she felt really, really grateful. I never expected that benefit. I wish I could get another vasectomy

 

[Banchan]

Sir, I am your fan.

About the bolded part, I think it's very interesting what you say and I never really thought about it. Over the years it gradually inverted for us. He's become more needy while I'm the one pushing for sex most of the time.

cooks1 really needs to be nominated for the most helpful poster in mayberry thread. always give consistently good advice in the topic of relationship and the sexes.

 

[cooks1]

cooks1 really needs to be nominated for the most helpful poster in mayberry thread. always give consistently good advice in the topic of relationship and the sexes.

 

[Banchan]

i havent seen one bad piece of advice from you in all the years ive posted here. i think generally people dont know enough about you because you dont really post in a way that attracts a lot of attention seeking such as arguing or name calling with people who disagree with you. more people should start to take notice because you always give solid advice.

 

[cooks1]

Good points as usual. I think the legal system has swung so far in favor of women as an attempt to correct the huge imbalance in power and earning potential generations ago.

However now that men and women are basically equal, the current system doesn't help men out all that much.

It's partially financial, but a lot of it is the fact that there's little stigma if you divorce anymore. That combined with how easy it is to meet people online makes it much easier to just bail.

We see that with the huge number of women initiating divorces now, merely because they're bored.

In my marriage and my friends marriages the divorces weren't a plot to take our money, as we really don't have that much. They just got bored.

It's so easy for women to get attention online that boosts their ego to the point of narcissism. You're no longer limited to the people in your immediate social circle.

You can just jump online and there's an instant echo chamber telling you that you can do better.

My close friend is currently in a long torturous relationship with an overly entitled sea cow. She's far below average in appearance, mentally unstable, and has a child.

Yet between the internet and her friends she's convinced she's some martyr, always bitching and demanding more.

Sorry for the challenges of you and yours bro. Hopefully that fact that there are a lot of posters in the thread having terrific relationships will give you hope.

One thing I would strongly encourage you and your mates to do is get off this 'men vs women', women get bored and bail, men get screwed in divorces merry-go-round. I'm not arguing with any of it. Nor am I suggesting that there is not truth to a lot of it. But I am suggesting that it's not productive and it's not a good frame of mind in which to go through life. You will not be able to keep the tension, suspicion, and cynicism from manifesting in ways that will put up barriers to better opportunities with better women.

It brings me no pleasure to tell you, but this value set is probably attracting the type of women prone to disappoint you.

Let each woman that comes to you have their own clean slate. A completely new account in which they can make their own deposits and withdrawals. You will end up finding what you want.

This sounds so logical and is how I've approached it, and how some of my friends have approached it.

I can say for us it's only given them an inflated ego and made them feel like they had "won" the relationship, and lead to us getting taken for granted since they didn't feel like we "deserved" them.

Many women constantly push for power and control in the relationship but they don't WANT it, they want you to fight them for it.

Essentially they take that doting affection as a sign of weakness

Mistaking kindness for weakness is not isolated to women. Men do that too. Sometimes people are just socially unaware, or had sheltered upbringings, and the behavior can be modified. I have told women I have dated in the past (thankfully never had to tell my wife) they are confusing my kindness with weakness, and they need to learn the difference, or I would have to stop being kind.

You can't really teach a person the difference. You can only alert them to the problem and give them the chance to learn the difference on their own.

I will admit though there is also a certain kind of person out there that has a genuine pathology that fits the issues you describe in your relationship. The 'give 'em an inch, they take a mile' type. There are people out there that will do just that. And you can be in a perfectly harmonious relationship with them. All you have to do is never give them an inch. I'm sure you have seen these kinds of relationships where it seems like one person is constantly a dick to the other one, yet that other person is quite content and has a perfectly healthy self esteem. They just like to be micromanaged and dominated. And they will push on you until you either do that or the relationship ends. Here is the money question though- Is that how you want to go through life. Some guys love being that way. Too much effort for me. I find balance works better in the long run.