Is Free Will an illusion?

[ocean size]

There is no such thing as free will. DESPAIR

Ha! I just linked the thread where you and I and others were talking about the Copenhagen interpretation of QM as it applies to the problem of free will.

 

[minute bull]

Yeah that's befuddling. Vewwy vewwy befuddwing.

 

[ocean size]

I've always been physically weak, but after spending my entire 20's working hard at the gym, I'm very strong now. Ill never be as strong as an Olympic weightlifter, but I still managed to change what I had by willful effort. I could have just accepted my condition and just said fuck it, those are the bricks, but I didn't. I believe the mind works in a similar way. It can be trained through conscious effort that isn't sufficiently explained by just saying brain chemistry or pre determination. That shit is just weak and a foolish attempt at explaining what we don't fully understand. I see it as just a new angle on the old god of the gaps.

So you think you trained your body or CNS/brain beyond what your brain chemistry would have allowed?

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

So you think you trained your body or CNS/brain beyond what your brain chemistry would have allowed?

Everyone has limits but people choose to push them or to remain stagnant, or even to regress. Brain chemistry is certainly a large factor in this but I think we can decide how much we allow it to limit us.

 

[ocean size]

Everyone has limits but people choose to push them or to remain stagnant, or even to regress. Brain chemistry is certainly a large factor in this but I think we can decide how much we allow it to limit us.

So really you believe in agency, not necessarily non-determinism.

I will say though on a more pragmatic level, I'd guess you don't know anyone with chronic depression or bipolar-Im or the wrath of an angry woman. We don't get to decide everything.

 

[minute bull]

What about free will as an abstract? Like talent or creativity, wherein none of these things can be proven without evidence but at the same time the evidence is not exactly proof, or rather is wholly separate from whether the abstract actually exists. It's somewhere out there, and it doesn't sound like much insight to say dreams cannot exist without the brain to give them a home. Perhaps in its simplicity or its dominion over common minutiae do we overlook the existence of an abstract free will. Does humor exist? Not so much for some?

 

[Luvs2Slash]

It's debatable. Ultimately I would say yes, but we do also seem to have the ability to shape it to some degree. We have more control over what has been determined for us than some people want to admit and some freedom is still better than no freedom.

I've always been physically weak, but after spending my entire 20's working hard at the gym, I'm very strong now. Ill never be as strong as an Olympic weightlifter, but I still managed to change what I had by willful effort. I could have just accepted my condition and just said fuck it, those are the bricks, but I didn't. I believe the mind works in a similar way. It can be trained through conscious effort that isn't sufficiently explained by just saying brain chemistry or pre determination. That shit is just weak and a foolish attempt at explaining what we don't fully understand. I see it as just a new angle on the old god of the gaps.

So like someone else said, you're relying on intuition, on how you "feel" during an experience.

Your effort doesn't prove anything. Why didn't you begin to "really" try when you were 16? Why were you able to begin in your twenties (assuming that is your age) rather than having to wait until you were 40? Why will you work out tomorrow, when at age 16 you would not have?

"Will power" is the easy, simplistic answer. But it's non-sensical. It makes absolutely no sense conceptually.

As has been said, you need to explain how the will supervenes the brain and makes it do things it would not have otherwise done. To this you really have to answer. You were lucky enough to have things fall into place, through your biological make up and your past experiences, to conduce you to engage in strength training in your twenties, rather than before or after them. This conclusion makes sense. Some kind of "willed" reason just does not make sense unless you engage in mystical, fantastical thinking wherein the immaterial soul/mind magically affects and changes the material brain.

 

[ocean size]

What about free will as an abstract? Like talent or creativity, wherein none of these things can be proven without evidence but at the same time the evidence is not exactly proof, or rather is wholly separate from whether the abstract actually exists. It's somewhere out there, and it doesn't sound like much insight to say dreams cannot exist without the brain to give them a home. Perhaps in its simplicity or its dominion over common minutiae do we overlook the existence of an abstract free will. Does humor exist? Not so much for some?

As far as all that is concerned yeah I think we have for all intents and purposes free will.

But formally, no. I was talking about earlier if you built a computer powerful enough to keep track of every atom, you would probably be able to keep determine outcomes in the future, because everything is derived from previous physical states.

That has no bearing on us, now, or may never actually happen, just a metaphysical possibility. So for all pragmatic purposes we still have free will.

One day we may know why which neurons contribute to creativity and why, and can predict the process.. not now, maybe not fully in the future...

 

[catchwrestle1]

i agree that free will doesn't truly exist, but giving an example of one involuntary action of the human body does not at all support any decent argument of that.

I know about the shitting. I was being facetious. Sarcastic.

As with everything... the truth is always somewhere in the middle. It all depends on how you define free will, ect.

We, as humans, as animals, will always be constrained by our physicality. Show me proof of some metaphysical plane of consciousnesses where 'free will' exists.... or show me proof of a deterministic 'God's plan' for everything.

They're both a crock of shit made up by people who want to evade the beautiful truth... that this life is truly random and in the conventional sense, meaningless.... purposeless.

That's what makes it so great. You pick your own purpose, and go with it. That's the best one can do, and I'll never criticize anyone for choosing a belief system that helps them through the trivialities of daily life.

Sherlock Holmes (Conan Doyle) said that truth is so very much stranger than fiction. I tend to believe that, and it's what makes life fun and worth living, in my opinion.

 

[Rekrul]

or show me proof of a deterministic 'God's plan' for everything.

If x force is applied to y particle in a vacuum, will it not have the same effect, every time? The same cause always has the same effect (to the extent that we can accurately measure effects, and sufficiently replicate conditions, etc.). If this wasn't the case science wouldn't work. You'd get different results to the same experiment, and have no way to predict the outcome of your next experiment. Math, and logic wouldn't work either.

We might have some quantum indeterminacy, and our measurements will always be too imprecise to "prove" that the universe 100% determined (see observer effect, uncertainty principle) at the most fundamental level, but it's pretty clear that it works in a deterministic fashion for all intents and purposes at macro scale (where the probabilities in quantum physics always average out the same).

They're both a crock of shit made up by people who want to evade the beautiful truth... that this life is truly random and in the conventional sense, meaningless.... purposeless.

Meaningless, purposeless? Sure. Random? Most definitely not.

 

[catchwrestle1]

If x force is applied to y particle in a vacuum, will it not have the same effect, every time? The same cause always has the same effect (to the extent that we can accurately measure effects, and sufficiently replicate conditions, etc.). If this wasn't the case science wouldn't work. You'd get different results to the same experiment, and have no way to predict the outcome of your next experiment. Math, and logic wouldn't work either.

We might have some quantum indeterminacy, and our measurements will always be too imprecise to "prove" that the universe 100% determined (see observer effect, uncertainty principle) at the most fundamental level, but it's pretty clear that it works in a deterministic fashion for all intents and purposes at macro scale (where the probabilities in quantum physics always average out the same).

Meaningless, purposeless? Sure. Random? Most definitely not.

Yeah. But the thing is... you're putting too much faith in science for my taste.

What we see, hear, measure... it all SEEMS to add up and make sense. But I don't think it is appropriate to assume anything, quite frankly. People always work under the assumption that they are seeing the world correctly. What if everybody had fucked up vision? Everybody would agree on what they see, but that doesn't mean they'll ever see the big picture accurately.

I like logic. I did very well in college in my logic courses. But some things just don't make sense and probably never will. That is what I mean by random.

I walk down the side of the road sometimes. I live in a big city. Sometimes I wonder, will a car just veer slightly and make me roadkill? That's all it would take. And I could only hope that it would be quick enough to be relatively painless.

THAT is what I mean by random. I choose to believe that some things simply can't be predicted. No matter how hard you try. When you choose to believe everything can be predicted accurately, you are choosing to believe you know virtually everything there is to know. And nobody is that intelligent. At least not on this planet.

And there really isn't any reason to mention quantum physics. There is no proof that it works or is accurate on anything other than a micro-scale.

That doesn't mean I don't find it interesting, but I doubt it will help me predict when some drunk asshole is going to run a red light and tear someone a new asshole.

 

[Rekrul]

What we see, hear, measure... it all SEEMS to add up and make sense. But I don't think it is appropriate to assume anything, quite frankly. People always work under the assumption that they are seeing the world correctly. What if everybody had fucked up vision? Everybody would agree on what they see, but that doesn't mean they'll ever see the big picture accurately.

I share your skepticism.

However, as a practical matter, once we've made the basic assumptions that are required to do anything (there is a real objective world, I can infer something about that world through sensory perception, etc.), we find that some approaches to gaining knowledge work.

Objects seem to behave in a consistent way, and as we measure their behavior more and more accurately, we're able to predict what they'll do next more, and more accurately. Maybe tomorrow objects will change their habits, or start behaving in an erratic fashion, but we don't have any reason to think they will. All of our experience tells us that the laws of physics don't just decide to change, so it would be unreasonable for us to expect them to. When we observe the structure of the universe, it looks the way we'd expect it to, if it had always worked the way that it works now.

Maybe all of our experiences, and observations are illusory, but this is the best we can do.

 

[catchwrestle1]

I share your skepticism.

However, as a practical matter, once we've made the basic assumptions that are required to do anything (there is a real objective world, I can infer something about that world through sensory perception, etc.), we find that some approaches to gaining knowledge work.

Objects seem to behave in a consistent way, and as we measure their behavior more and more accurately, we're able to predict what they'll do next more, and more accurately. Maybe tomorrow objects will change their habits, or start behaving in an erratic fashion, but we don't have any reason to think they will. All of our experience tells us that the laws of physics don't just decide to change, so it would be unreasonable for us to expect them to. When we observe the structure of the universe, it looks the way we'd expect it to, if it had always worked the way that it works now.

Maybe all of our experiences, and observations are illusory, but this is the best we can do.

I couldn't agree more. Just because things COULD change instantaneously doesn't mean we should necessarily plan on it.

We both may be skeptical, but that shouldn't stop our behavior from being practical.

 

[Raiman]

Compatibilism anyone?

 

[SafyreSchool**]

This ain't no illusion!


..oh, wait, nevermind.

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

So like someone else said, you're relying on intuition, on how you "feel" during an experience.

Your effort doesn't prove anything. Why didn't you begin to "really" try when you were 16? Why were you able to begin in your twenties (assuming that is your age) rather than having to wait until you were 40? Why will you work out tomorrow, when at age 16 you would not have?

"Will power" is the easy, simplistic answer. But it's non-sensical. It makes absolutely no sense conceptually.

As has been said, you need to explain how the will supervenes the brain and makes it do things it would not have otherwise done. To this you really have to answer. You were lucky enough to have things fall into place, through your biological make up and your past experiences, to conduce you to engage in strength training in your twenties, rather than before or after them. This conclusion makes sense. Some kind of "willed" reason just does not make sense unless you engage in mystical, fantastical thinking wherein the immaterial soul/mind magically affects and changes the material brain.

So now you are admitting what I said pages back. Your view just says that everything is dumb luck. So then why would making an informed, rational decision be any more or less valid than flipping a coin? Whatever you do is already predetermined, so why put any effort into anything if it will all just fall into place by luck?

 

[Amerikuracana]

It's all an illusion.

 

[catchwrestle1]

So now you are admitting what I said pages back. Your view just says that everything is dumb luck. So then why would making an informed, rational decision be any more or less valid than flipping a coin? Whatever you do is already predetermined, so why put any effort into anything if it will all just fall into place by luck?

The reason you put effort into anything is ultimately to survive. It's called instinct.

You can flip as many coins as you want, but only getting off your ass and taking them to the store will get you some food.

Whether an informed, rational decision is more or less 'valid' than flipping a coin is up to you. It all depends on what you aim to achieve.

Like I said earlier, I respect any belief system that helps you get through the day (within reason).

I do believe in will. It just isn't free.

 

[Rekrul]

Your view just says that everything is dumb luck.

There is no luck in a deterministic world.

So then why would making an informed, rational decision be any more or less valid than flipping a coin?

Making rational decisions is useful because the world works in a rational, consistent way. It enables you to use your knowledge of cause and effect to behave in ways which will likely result in you reaching your desired outcome.

When you make a choice, that really is an expression of your will. When you try to create conditions that will enable you reach a desirable position, you really are altering the world, and putting yourself on a new path. If you acted in a different way, it really would have had different effects. It's just that none of those hypothetical alternative outcomes would ever have been realized, unless the starting conditions of the universe were different.

so why put any effort into anything if it will all just fall into place by luck?

That attitude would reduce the likelihood that you'd ever get the things that you want.

 

[DeadtoMyself**]

Nope: I chose to eat bacon and eggs this morning not because I wanted to but because I started my diet today. I make random choices all the time, so I don't think that I'm always predisposed to choose a certain thing.