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Is Free Will an illusion?

Maybe that's your aim. My aim is to understand myself in relation to "the truth," and how such understanding might put me ahead of where I was back when I no comprendo. Thinking as an activity ought to bear fruit, don't you think? I mean, if it is without advantage or disadvantage, is it possible to come to any feasible conclusion? Or is the question the entire point?

It seems to me free will comprises a lot of different elements that get jumbled to the point of white noise.

OK. So before you believe any claim you - instead of looking at the evidence and rational arguments made in favor of it - simply ask yourself "will believing this claim make me feel fuzzy and warm or bummed out?".

Interesting.
 
OK. So before you believe any claim you - instead of looking at the evidence and rational arguments made in favor of it - simply ask yourself "will believing this claim make me feel fuzzy and warm or bummed out?".

Interesting.
More like "why does it make me feel XYZ." I guess how I feel is kinda intrinsic to everything I do and shapes everything I perceive.
 
This isn't a thread about determinism though. It's about free will. The universe could work in a totally random, chaotic way, and free will would still not make any sense.

Exactly. Even strong emergence doesn't necessarily entail free will. As was discussed in the first page of the thread.

I know we've done this topic in the past, at least I think I did it with Hillraiser, but I wanted to add the wiki on Free Will is pretty solid - maybe some background will add to discussion in this thread.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

I think I was much more of a compatibilist last time we went through this one actually. Not sure what's changed since then.

More like "why does it make me feel XYZ." I guess how I feel is kinda intrinsic to everything I do and shapes everything I perceive.

I'm actually trying a bit of this as a side project right now. It helps a bit with my defense of rational theism, but I haven't thought it all the way through yet.
 
Found it - http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f48/your-opinion-free-will-its-consequence-2211059/ that was kind of a fun thread - amazing the shit I forget - anyway I liked this quote I found and subsequently forgot about:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/74415399-post117.html

I liked my med school --> alligator joke at the end of that one. Entropy didn't though, apparently. Still have no idea what he was trying to say.

Actually, to comment on Hawking's quote, I don't think it helps his case all that much either. It's like saying free will is a helpful construction at this point in time, while the input is too complicated to process realistically. It still doesn't grant ontological status to free will, and I still imagine the staunchest supporters of free will would find it dissatisfying.

I know I would.
 
I liked my med school --> alligator joke at the end of that one. Entropy didn't though, apparently. Still have no idea what he was trying to say.

Actually, to comment on Hawking's quote, I don't think it helps his case all that much either. It's like saying free will is a helpful construction at this point in time, while the input is too complicated to process realistically. It still doesn't grant ontological status to free will, and I still imagine the staunchest supporters of free will would find it dissatisfying.

I know I would.

Yeah probably. But I think the point is and I feel like that (mis?)conception is in this thread and the op of that last one, determinism that precludes free will doesn't need change anything about how you make decisions or go on about your life - it need not be a depressing thing to mull over.

It doesn't change your degree of agency. <- that one might be arguable but I think it is true.
 
Yeah probably. But I think the point is and I feel like that (mis?)conception is in this thread and the op of that last one, determinism that precludes free will doesn't need change anything about how you make decisions or go on about your life - it need not be a depressing thing to mull over.

It doesn't change your degree of agency. <- that one might be arguable but I think it is true.

I completely agree.
 
Civil rights vs civil liberties, in other words.

Pretty much yeah.. I mean hey it's a free world / country right? WRONG.. You can't cross the street - that's jay walking , you can't discipline YOUR kids cause thats wrong.. Life as we know it is illegal
 
Thanks for all the insight on the matter, all these contributions made me realize how ignorant I was on the matter a couple of days ago.
 
Cognitive function allowing us to reflect and act on those thoughts prove your argument against free will false. Our subconscious is a product of our conscious experiences btw. There is nothing mystical or determining about it.

You got nothing kid. I like your screen name, but you are not worthy of it.

Wow, you've been really condescending and arrogant in this thread.

The question is, if our cognitive function is a direct result of brain (as you say) how can it do anything "more" than its physical properties allow it to?

You mentioned that if free will does not exist, then logic etc "don't matter". I think this depends on what you mean by don't matter.

Logic may well be an ontologically, objectively etc better way to solve a problem/decide an action rather than guessing. But .. this does nothing to prove free will exists. Whether one uses logic or guessing can still be determined.

All determinism means, is that whether one uses a logical process to "decide" how to act, rather than guessing, is a matter of luck. It's a matter of how the brain is structured at any given moment.

As I said, logic may be superior to guessing. But whether an individual is able to access and use logic in their decision making, if determinism is true (which I think it is) is a matter of luck, as the ability to reflect on and consider something are depedent on brain states ... which are dependent on prior causes ... which regress infinitely ... which means free will does not exist.

While I don't like everything he says, I think Sam Harris's short book on free will is very illuminating and explains the question well.
 
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Wow, you've been really condescending and arrogant in this thread.

Tough shit.



All determinism means, is that whether one uses a logical process to "decide" how to act, rather than guessing, is a matter of luck. It's a matter of how the brain is structured at any given moment.

Yeah I know, and it's a half assed viewpoint at best. People choose how much of their brain to utilize at any given moment and not all of that is attributed to luck. Your thoughts and attitudes are in a feedback cycle with your neurological pathways, it's not just a one way cause and effect stream. Many studies have been done to show this.
 
Tough shit.





Yeah I know, and it's a half assed viewpoint at best. People choose how much of their brain to utilize at any given moment and not all of that is attributed to luck. Your thoughts and attitudes are in a feedback cycle with your neurological pathways, it's not just a one way cause and effect stream. Many studies have been done to show this.

How does one choose? How does the non physical "mind" interact with the physical brain? The problem of interaction between the soul/mind and brain goes all the way back to Descartes. He answered with the pineal gland, which doesn't really make sense. And from then I don't think there's been any convincing response to it.

It does not mean free will is false, but it puts it in a similar category to God. There's good reason to not believe.
 
Tough shit.





Yeah I know, and it's a half assed viewpoint at best. People choose how much of their brain to utilize at any given moment and not all of that is attributed to luck. Your thoughts and attitudes are in a feedback cycle with your neurological pathways, it's not just a one way cause and effect stream. Many studies have been done to show this.

Why does he get a response and I don't?

Do thoughts and attitudes arise from neurological pathways?
 
How does one choose? How does the non physical "mind" interact with the physical brain? The problem of interaction between the soul/mind and brain goes all the way back to Descartes. He answered with the pineal gland, which doesn't really make sense. And from then I don't think there's been any convincing response to it.

It does not mean free will is false, but it puts it in a similar category to God. There's good reason to not believe.

And determinism doesn't? It's just a depersonalized version of a God but even more restrictive.

I guess people need to choose a higher power for themselves.
 
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Why does he get a response and I don't?

Do thoughts and attitudes arise from neurological pathways?

It's debatable. Ultimately I would say yes, but we do also seem to have the ability to shape it to some degree. We have more control over what has been determined for us than some people want to admit and some freedom is still better than no freedom.

I've always been physically weak, but after spending my entire 20's working hard at the gym, I'm very strong now. Ill never be as strong as an Olympic weightlifter, but I still managed to change what I had by willful effort. I could have just accepted my condition and just said fuck it, those are the bricks, but I didn't. I believe the mind works in a similar way. It can be trained through conscious effort that isn't sufficiently explained by just saying brain chemistry or pre determination. That shit is just weak and a foolish attempt at explaining what we don't fully understand. I see it as just a new angle on the old god of the gaps.
 
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It's debatable. Ultimately I would say yes, but we do also seem to have the ability to shape it to some degree. We have more control over what has been determined for us than some people want to admit and some freedom is still better than no freedom.

Thanks for reply

If 'We' (our minds) arise from our thoughts and attitudes, which debately arise from our neurological pathways, then isn't determinism just debatable?

Whether or not some freedom ought to be better than no freedom has no bearing on whether we are in a partially or fully determined universe.
 
Doesn't neural plasticity prove otherwise? There is a feedback loop between attitude and neural pathways, no? Both shape each other?
 
Doesn't neural plasticity prove otherwise? There is a feedback loop between attitude and neural pathways, no? Both shape each other?

Well if attitude arises from neural pathway, is that not just neural pathway shaping themselves? If neural pathways ultimately change as a function of their previous state, that is still fully deterministic?

Of course I can't prove where attitude arises from, but I think it all comes from the brain.
 
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