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Is Free Will an illusion?

HillRaiser said:
Personally I find the case against free will to be fairly convincing.
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If you're a simpleton. That kind of thinking has held back quite a lot of civilizations.

We can't control everything but we certainly have a small degree of will power.
 
Sam Harris has a good book on this where he goes over both the philosophical arguments against free will (he argues that free will is an illusion) and some neuroscience data showing how our brains actually make our decisions before we are even conscious of them. He also pontificates how if you really think about it, you can experience for yourself how certain thoughts appear seemingly out of nowhere, for instance if asked to say the first city, or vegetable or whatever, to pop into your head. These mental 'whims' are for the most part non-conscious.

Another good point he makes, that has been mentioned in this thread already, is that an argument against determinism by pointing out possible examples of randomness (quantum physics etc.), is not an argument for free will at all, it just means that we are governed by chaos instead of causality, but still not by ourselves.
 
The problem I have with arguments against free will is that they replace "God" with "the universe" or "the subconscious" or "chaos" or "fate" etc.... but they make the constraints on mankind even more restrictive. Determinism is no less absurd than theism.

A few minutes of serious thought cuts right through that bs. It's not an all or zero sum answer. Some things are determined and some aren't. Free will within parameters is still will power.
 
Just did a quick google search on that Sam Harris book and it looks pretty intriguing. I think I'm gunna give this one a read.
 
Ooops, sorry, I thought this was the fetish thread. Or did I...?
 
Shemhazai said:
Sam Harris has a good book on this where he goes over both the philosophical arguments against free will (he argues that free will is an illusion) and some neuroscience data showing how our brains actually make our decisions before we are even conscious of them. He also pontificates how if you really think about it, you can experience for yourself how certain thoughts appear seemingly out of nowhere, for instance if asked to say the first city, or vegetable or whatever, to pop into your head. These mental 'whims' are for the most part non-conscious.

Another good point he makes, that has been mentioned in this thread already, is that an argument against determinism by pointing out possible examples of randomness (quantum physics etc.), is not an argument for free will at all, it just means that we are governed by chaos instead of causality, but still not by ourselves.
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I'm sorry but thoughts appearing out of nowhere is not a good point. People who consistently act on impulse without contemplation usually wind up institutionalized.
 
You guys are all over the place with this. Free will is really used very narrowly in ethics. Its really the question if someone has moral culpability for their actions.
Its not saying that there is no causal chain for the actions or that the actions aren't known in advance.

The big thing is that everyone with very few exceptions pragmatically acts as if they believe in free will. The staunchest determinists as well. So really the question is a bit pointless unless one really wants to move to a world view that no one is responsible for their actions morally no matter how heinous.
 
i always get bothered when i get deja vu. it's so bizarre to me that i could have had a dream many years ago, and then it ends up happening.
 
Not really. There are so many variables that affect our decision making that it seems out conciousness becomes of so little impact as to how we make our decisions. Nevermind the fact how easily a persons decision making functions can be changed (e.g. introducing chemicals in the brain or any form of brain damage). I'd say the extent to which we have free will is the pur conciousness rationalizes or at least assesses the consequences of our decisions.
 
LucasWithLidOff said:
I'm sorry but thoughts appearing out of nowhere is not a good point. People who consistently act on impulse without contemplation usually wind up institutionalized.
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What kind of argument is this supposed to be?

Thoughts appearing out of nowhere (as they sometimes do with ALL people) prove that our consciousness is not the author of our thoughts.
 
Shemhazai said:
What kind of argument is this supposed to be?

Thoughts appearing out of nowhere (as they sometimes do with ALL people) prove that our consciousness is not the author of our thoughts.
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Cognitive function allowing us to reflect and act on those thoughts prove your argument against free will false. Our subconscious is a product of our conscious experiences btw. There is nothing mystical or determining about it.

You got nothing kid. I like your screen name, but you are not worthy of it.
 
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LucasWithLidOff said:
If you're a simpleton. That kind of thinking has held back quite a lot of civilizations.

We can't control everything but we certainly have a small degree of will power.
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And that will power is somehow "free"?

What does that even mean? Things like, your genes or your medication or your surroundings don't matter because some magical free-floating will power decides how you act?

Pretty rich that you're calling other people simpletons because they don't agree with your nonsense.
 
mesomorph said:
And that will power is somehow "free"?

What does that even mean? Things like, your genes or your medication or your surroundings don't matter because some magical free-floating will power decides how you act?

Pretty rich that you're calling other people simpletons because they don't agree with your nonsense.
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MY nonsense? Lol, I guess I was wrong about you. You are an idiot. Keep enjoying your mystical thinking. Ill stay in reality where I have some control over my destiny.
 
LucasWithLidOff said:
MY nonsense? Lol, I guess I was wrong about you. You are an idiot. Keep enjoying your mystical thinking. Ill stay in reality where I have some control over my destiny.
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What, no specific explanation of your theory?
Where does this free-floating will power come from? Not from physics clearly. Is it from another dimension? Was it created by leprechauns, perhaps?

LOL @ my mystical thinking.
 
mesomorph said:
What, no specific explanation of your theory?
Where does this free-floating will power come from? Not from physics clearly. Is it from another dimension? Was it created by leprechauns, perhaps?

LOL @ my mystical thinking.
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Your cerebral cortex numbskull.
 
Yeah I remember having a dream that the brakes on my truck went out, and I remember vividly the panic and the feeling of the brake pedal compressing all the way to the floor and nothing happening. Then about 3 days later it actually happened. There was nothing to suggest it was a possibility to plant in my mind before that either.
 
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