Is Free Will an illusion?

Am I missing a reference?


If not, if it's spinning on the ground and spitting sparks everywhere, morally is nice, but you've got to get the fire extinguisher on the thing if you want the rest of the tents to survive.
 
Prokofievian said:
Then you will probably have to outline the rest of the problem. It doesn't definitively answer the problem, but it does allow the possibility.
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The problem isn't so much the determinacy of the causal chain as much as the starting point. If I'm going to have agency I'm going to need a mostly deterministic system anyways, or else I won't have any control over what's going on.

The trouble is breaking human will free from the surrounding contingencies enough to say that it was in fact the will that was responsible for the ensuing consequence. At what point does will enter the equation? Is the will not itself determined by what comes before it?
 
Oenomaus said:
Reignited a debate between a friend and I tonight on the topic of free will so I pose the following question. - Are our decisions determined by a casual chain of preceeding events or are our decisions controlled by ourselves? - My opinion, we have free will. Why else would we have a conscious if every decision we make is predetermined?
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Last time I had this discussion I came to the conclusion that people "prove" free will by doing a random thing, and people "disprove" free will by showing that your actions were motivated by some desire, even the desire to disprove the claim.

In this situation, free will is a flawed concept. If there's a reason for it, it's not "free." But if there's no reason at all and it's a random occurrence, it's not "will."

So that's my answer for the time being. Free will is hotly debated because, like many other classic philosophical debates, it's based on a flawed and unclear term.
 
HillRaiser said:
The problem isn't so much the determinacy of the causal chain as much as the starting point. If I'm going to have agency I'm going to need a mostly deterministic system anyways, or else I won't have any control over what's going on.

The trouble is breaking human will free from the surrounding contingencies enough to say that it was in fact the will that was responsible for the ensuing consequence. At what point does will enter the equation? Is the will not itself determined by what comes before it?
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I see. So, what you're saying is that even if our system is indeterminate, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the brain does physically isn't what our mind thinks anyways, whatever that may be.

It would seem necessary that for free will to exist, consciousness must be separate from our physical reality.

....hm.
 
Prokofievian said:
I see. So, what you're saying is that even if our system is indeterminate, that doesn't necessarily mean that what the brain does physically isn't what our mind thinks anyways, whatever that may be.

It would seem necessary that for free will to exist, consciousness must be separate from our physical reality.

....hm.
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Yea.. I've come to that conclusion a few times and been similarly dissatisfied.

If you like you could probably skim through "Free Will - A Very Short Introduction" within a few days. This thread just reminded me that I had it :D

Most of the time I just pop into these threads to say "it doesn't matter!" and then back into the crowd and fade away.
 
HillRaiser said:
Yea.. I've come to that conclusion a few times and been similarly dissatisfied.

If you like you could probably skim through "Free Will - A Very Short Introduction" within a few days. This thread just reminded me that I had it :D

Most of the time I just pop into these threads to say "it doesn't matter!" and then back into the crowd and fade away.
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I don't get much time to read philosophy with my course schedule, but this term, things are starting to lighten up. I may just give that a read, though. Those are those "A very short introduction" series that you find at Chapters next to the "Philosophy and Twilight" books, right? :icon_lol:
 
Prokofievian said:
I don't get much time to read philosophy with my course schedule, but this term, things are starting to lighten up. I may just give that a read, though. Those are those "A very short introduction" series that you find at Chapters next to the "Philosophy and Twilight" books, right? :icon_lol:
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Hey fuck you, I have like 4 of those :p The Mad Men one was fun.

They're tiny, dense books usually written by a single expert on the subject. I've been surprisingly satisfied with the few that I've been through (but, uh, I didn't exactly get them at chapters).
 
AGGAMEMNON66 said:
You don't understand Christianity at all.
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That's cool.

Read the Bible.

Then tell me how one has free will when your decisions are known beforehand by the All-Mighty.

It's not like He knows a "potential" outcome. He knows THE outcome.
 
HillRaiser said:
Hey fuck you, I have like 4 of those :p The Mad Men one was fun.

They're tiny, dense books usually written by a single expert on the subject. I've been surprisingly satisfied with the few that I've been through (but, uh, I didn't exactly get them at chapters).
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I love berks. I have a big stack I need to get through after this whole "degree" thing is over.

Anyways, Canada vs Russia now *********s.
 
Prokofievian said:
I love berks. I have a big stack I need to get through after this whole "degree" thing is over.

Anyways, Canada vs Russia now *********s.
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LOL. I was about to ask if that's why you were awake.

I'll put it on as I fall asleep.
 
HillRaiser said:
LOL. I was about to ask if that's why you were awake.

I'll put it on as I fall asleep.
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I don't know why I'm watching this Bronze shit at 2 in the morning...

...the last vestige of petty nationalism I have, I suppose.
 
There's no such thing as a predetermined destiny if that's what you're getting at...also known as common sense
 
The concept of free will is a paradox.
As we've seen throughout history, money is the influence to all decisions and hierarchy of power.
Those that have more money tend to establish bargaining power & influence in society above others.

The mortgage crisis is living proof that cash rules everything around us. (C.R.E.A.M)
 
If it is then making well informed, rational decisions is equally as valid as flipping a coin or relying on superstition.

Seriously, stop to think a little bit and take this foolishness to its logicsl conclusion. Do you fruits really believe that?
 
Legally speaking no one in the civilized world has complete and total free will. Philosophically speaking I think for the big picture we have free will to determine our own path and make our own decisions but it doesn't always work out the way we thought it would.
 
LucasWithLidOff said:
If it is then making well informed, rational decisions is equally as valid as flipping a coin or relying on superstition.

Seriously, stop to think a little bit and take this foolishness to its logicsl conclusion. Do you fruits really believe that?
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And how exactly is that logical?
 
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