Is BJJ still relevant in modern MMA (Blog post)

[TheKindSativah**]

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[akharon]

Sorry, "good enough".

Its a different world, you can have an amazing BJJ game but when you lose the grips and get punched in the face the world changes completely.

If you think that Edgar would defeat Penn under BJJ rules, you are dellusional, and yet he managed to nullify Penn.,

I certainly agree, in a straight BJJ match Penn would likely tool Edgar. However, the good -> good enough change changes the tone of what I was rebutting. At a world class MMA level, nothing is ever "good enough". To just compare Penn's BJJ to Edgar's BJJ totally leaves out the years and years of wrestling experience that Edgar has, which served him effectively in being one of the few men to ever take Penn down.

This is completely false, i have yet to train BJJ where the instructor takes into account the fact that you can be punched. BJJ is trained mostly as a sport MA under BJJ rules.

That's disappointing. Maybe my school and the few I've visited are more rare than I've thought, though I really hope that's not the case. IMO, BJJ w/o combat awareness is like a neutered pitbull in a dogfight. It could have been great, but something crucial is missing that is really going to cost it in the end.

Yeah but you can't take for granted that because im succesful at BJJ ill be succesful at MMA ground game, that's why wrestlers have been dominating lately. Its not because BJJ is becoming obsolete, as you have greats like Werdum or Jacare subbing people, its because people think they can make the transition without specific training and effort.

Learning to keep people on the ground, learning a sense of urgency in precarious position (sport bjj is chess, mma bjj is chess with a clock) and learning to take people down and land in advantageous position.

These are IMO what needs to be learned to have effective MMA bjj, if you look at the greats, they all have those.

I couldn't agree more. Just two nights ago I was talking to my instructor about Dave Camarillo's interview on the fightworks podcast, and how he says the same thing we do - Ground fighting is worthless if you can't get it down there.

Maybe my school is abnormal, but we're always taught to be aware of our position and what it means for a fight. You can't just sit in bottom mount and wait for the next move from the other guy, you must force the change. Everything about the bottom position, side, guard, half guard or mount is about sweeps, submissions or escapes. Just because you're not taking blows in class doesn't mean they won't be coming outside of class.

 

[Epyon]

BJJ, as submission grappling as applied to MMA is an outright requirement for successful MMA fighters. You simply cannot be successful in this sport at the top level without knowing basic submissions/defense at a moderate to advanced level.

However, BJJ as a sport, is evolving further and further away from works in A FIGHT, to what works in grappling/BJJ tournaments. That's why some top level BJJ have so much trouble transitioning their games into MMA, and why fighters like Maia are so great to watch in MMA. He does BJJ, but he does it in a way that accounts for MMA's rule set.

I realize he just got subbed by Werdum, but I think Fedor's Sambo is a great prototype of a style people should emulate. He limits his ground game to high % moves as applicable to MMA and does those well. He's not the brilliant ground tactician Maia or Werdum are, but he knows and can execute the basics well enough to be successful and finish fights, and he does it within a MMA perspective (technically a Sambo perspective, but at the very least its grappling WITH striking to form a solid, effective base/style)

 

[nni]

I realize he just got subbed by Werdum, but I think Fedor's Sambo is a great prototype of a style people should emulate. He limits his ground game to high % moves as applicable to MMA and does those well. He's not the brilliant ground tactician Maia or Werdum are, but he knows and can execute the basics well enough to be successful and finish fights, and he does it within a MMA perspective (technically a Sambo perspective, but at the very least its grappling WITH striking to form a solid, effective base/style)

I agree. It seems to me like one of the most important things in the ground game is the decision to either strike or go for submissions. Some top BJJ guys will neglect inflicting damage in search for a sub, whereas others will soften up opponents first. And it's something that you don't learn in traditional grappling arts for obvious reasons.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I'll give you guys the last section (aka the conclusion) so that people can stop complaining without reading it.

BJJ is far from obsolete in modern MMA! As stated above, a fighter can no longer expect to excel with only a base in BJJ; however a fighter cannot expect to become a champion without it! And even the best can still lose to a well timed + properly executed submission.

 

[BWC]

BJJ, as submission grappling as applied to MMA is an outright requirement for successful MMA fighters. You simply cannot be successful in this sport at the top level without knowing basic submissions/defense at a moderate to advanced level.

However, BJJ as a sport, is evolving further and further away from works in A FIGHT, to what works in grappling/BJJ tournaments. That's why some top level BJJ have so much trouble transitioning their games into MMA, and why fighters like Maia are so great to watch in MMA. He does BJJ, but he does it in a way that accounts for MMA's rule set.

I realize he just got subbed by Werdum, but I think Fedor's Sambo is a great prototype of a style people should emulate. He limits his ground game to high % moves as applicable to MMA and does those well. He's not the brilliant ground tactician Maia or Werdum are, but he knows and can execute the basics well enough to be successful and finish fights, and he does it within a MMA perspective (technically a Sambo perspective, but at the very least its grappling WITH striking to form a solid, effective base/style)

I think this is a great point. Too many really, really good BJJ players can't do jack in an MMA format. I always wondered why that was until I started training. At the higher levels, guys like to try to show off with junk like flying armbars, omoplatas, etc. While that looks cool in a grappling/BJJ tourney and during rolling, you're liable to get knocked out or slammed out in MMA. And I should qualify that a lot of the crazy fancy stuff doesn't even work in level tourneys. I call that stuff "TKD BJJ". Looks pretty but pretty much useless in reality. Pretty much the basics work in MMA and not much else and after you've rocked a guy or when he's exhausted/and or beat up (Sonnen). It's why I train the basic stuff really hard and really don't overly concern myself with the crazy stuff..

 

[Bucketbot]

I'll give you guys the last section (aka the conclusion) so that people can stop complaining without reading it.

thanks man...
i was thinking of posting something to that effect...
As you pointed out, several people are commenting on the blog post without actually even reading it

Again, i repeat
I support BJJ!!!
I am arguing that BJJ IS NOT obsolete in modern MMA

thanks again man

 

[curb1850]

I'll give you guys the last section (aka the conclusion) so that people can stop complaining without reading it.

Thanks perfect.

 

[fourfif**]

T/S is right BJJ isn't relevant anymore

you didn't read the article or the thread before you started posting a bunch of retarded gifs.

you suck.

heavies ---------------------->

 

[winman]

As a BJJ fighter I want to say yes but wrestling has taken over

Back in the day BJJ dominated but today wrestlers with a wrestling background that have learned BJJ and defense are the ones taking over

BJJ fighters don’t have the retard strength and raw power and cardio that BJJ fighters have

Just look at the current champs

GSP – wrestling based
Brock – wrestler based
Edgar - wrestling based

Top light weight contender – Maynard wrestling based
Top welter weight contender – Fitch, Koscheck
Top light heavyweight contender – Rashad Evan
Top heavyweight contender – Carwin, Velasquez,

Also when I fight grappling tournaments the wreslters are the ones that scare us the most

True?

 

[nni]

lol. Obvious trolls are obvious.

 

[BWC]

As a BJJ fighter I want to say yes but wrestling has taken over

Back in the day BJJ dominated but today wrestlers with a wrestling background that have learned BJJ and defense are the ones taking over

BJJ fighters don

 

[akharon]

As a BJJ fighter I want to say yes but wrestling has taken over

Back in the day BJJ dominated but today wrestlers with a wrestling background that have learned BJJ and defense are the ones taking over

Takedowns have always been important, and there's a lot of good that wrestling teaches beyond that, such as positional control.

BJJ fighters don

 

[Waldorf]

I love BJJ and I think the postional based ground game and sub approach offered by BJJ is still second to none, but I I'll buy the agrument that the offensive guard has be come low percentage, especially in top level MMA Short rounds, hips against the cage, and guys who now how to defend make it tough. You going to need to wear your opponent down or make hope he makes some mistakes to get the sub. I think working a surprise or just imposing your will from guard is rareity.

I think BJJ guys still do pretty well when they land on top. Two of the black belts who lost in the last fight (BJ and Florian) are pretty money passing the guard and then either taking the back or keeping mount. Especially when they can use striking to soften up their oponents. Even though Jakes Shields has a strong wrestling base and it helped him beat Hendo, I think his BJJ (mount maintance) won him the fight. Florian seems tough to shake off of mount and he and BJJ are great finishers from the back.


One debate I have now though if your a fighter with strong BJJ, instead of passing are you better off using your sub defense from guard and your ability to control hips to keep you opponent on their back to ground and pound (ala Fitch. Or, do you work the pass, risk giving up the scramble space, and allow the opponent to back up or the chance to reverse. I think Greg Jackson may have a point that passing isn't always the high percentage way to a win.

And of course all the current UFC champs have jiu jitsu coaches. Shogun and Silva, while having a muay thai base, are black belts-jiu jitsu is their ground game. I think St Pierre has every bit a jiu jitsu base as a wreslting base, and I'd bet he has spent much more time training jiu jitsu than pure wrestling. I think Almedia is an important coach for Edgar. Comprido for Brock. I've never rolled with Frankie Edgar but I bet if we did we would think not only is he a good wreslter, but he has pretty good jiu jitsu too. Even number one contender Rashad Evans has a black belt:icon_chee

 

[Drew Foster]

Honestly right now... and I think most people know this at heart... This isn't the case for everyone, but for most fighters:

MMA is just MMA in 2010. It's getting harder and harder to distill and separate different components of MMA. Obviously, when Little Nog does the deep half guard or Karo does a Judo throw, it becomes easy to say where that came from. It's pretty obvious to me we are already into the era of MMA where the MMA athlete is just an MMA athlete, not the product of different skill sets, even though they obviously still need to be trained separately, then brought together.

 

[Drew Foster]

I love BJJ and I think the postional based ground game and sub approach offered by BJJ is still second to none, but I I'll buy the agrument that the offensive guard has be come low percentage, especially in top level MMA Short rounds, hips against the cage, and guys who now how to defend make it tough. You going to need to wear your opponent down or make hope he makes some mistakes to get the sub. I think working a surprise or just imposing your will from guard is rareity.

I think BJJ guys still do pretty well when they land on top. Two of the black belts who lost in the last fight (BJ and Florian) are pretty money passing the guard and then either taking the back or keeping mount. Especially when they can use striking to soften up their oponents. Even though Jakes Shields has a strong wrestling base and it helped him beat Hendo, I think his BJJ (mount maintance) won him the fight. Florian seems tough to shake off of mount and he and BJJ are great finishers from the back.


One debate I have now though if your a fighter with strong BJJ, instead of passing are you better off using your sub defense from guard and your ability to control hips to keep you opponent on their back to ground and pound (ala Fitch. Or, do you work the pass, risk giving up the scramble space, and allow the opponent to back up or the chance to reverse. I think Greg Jackson may have a point that passing isn't always the high percentage way to a win.

And of course all the current UFC champs have jiu jitsu coaches. Shogun and Silva, while having a muay thai base, are black belts-jiu jitsu is their ground game. I think St Pierre has every bit a jiu jitsu base as a wreslting base, and I'd bet he has spent much more time training jiu jitsu than pure wrestling. I think Almedia is an important coach for Edgar. Comprido for Brock. I've never rolled with Frankie Edgar but I bet if we did we would think not only is he a good wreslter, but he has pretty good jiu jitsu too. Even number one contender Rashad Evans has a black belt:icon_chee

While it's not relevant to the discussion here, I really do wonder if GSP has spent more time on Jiu Jitsu than wrestling. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I was under the impression GSP had started to concentrate more of his time on wrestling than BJJ, but at the end of the day it's all grappling, so your point obviously stands. I was just under the impression that in 2007/2008 GSP spent more time on wrestling than anything else.

 

[tenniswhiz]

I'm sorry, not to speak for FOURFIF, but where exactly did he say that Fedor doesn't know what a triangle is or how to defend it?

I think he meant to imply that diving into the guard of a world champ and ADCC champ was not smart. Fedor could have incredible triangle defense, but against a guy with the guard skills of Werdum, it is never going to be good enough.

Of course it wasn't a "win for BJJ" but it is a great and current example of how some things never change. It does show why the triangle is the most common submission in BJJ and submission grappling.

No one said it wasn't a tactical mistake, but to say that it wasn't Fedor's lack of submission game is also a mistake. There's a balance here. Yes, it was a tactical error and no one is saying Fedor doesn't know submissions. But Fedor was unable to escape the triangle after trying very hard too. Werdum deserves a lot of credit.

"It is like the equivalent t of a knockout, it just happened." What does that mean?

If I'm reading it correctly, it seems like you're saying a knockout or submission win is like a lucky punch... There's no such thing. If you aim for someone's head and hit them, it's not lucky. That's what you tried to do. Same with Werdum's triangle. It didn't just "happen." He attempted, and finishes, a triangle choke. It wasn't an accident.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that it just happened... Can you clarify this?

I agree with most of what you said (even though your post wasn't addressed to me).

What I don't agree with is the fact that you (and many other fans) deny that luck is a factor in MMA, BJJ, or any other sport.

I caught a purple belt in a triangle a few months back. I've rolled with this guy about a 100 times, so he beat me 99/100 times. So that one time, yes, he just got caught (careless mistake or not), and if it is a 1% occurrence, that is luck.
Now imagine that I ran into this purple belt in the absolute division of a tournament, and despite his superior skills, I got lucky and that 1/100 event happened. That is luck.

More examples... a baseball player averages a home run once in ever 25 attempts at bat. So he gets it 4% of the time. If it happens in a big game and his team wins, great... but that was lucky. Because most of the time, it doesn't happen.
It's not logical to say that he trains hard to hit home runs, therefore it's not lucky. Unless he hits home runs more than 50% of the time, any time he catches a home run, he is lucky.

So if Fedor could beat Werdum 9x out of 10, and Werdum happens to win when they actually meet, then Werdum got lucky.
Some might believe Werdum beats him more often. But most fans do believe that Fedor wins most of the time.
I would say Fedor could dive into the guard, leave one arm out, and actually nail Werdum with one or more of those punches, and KO him, before getting subbed most of the time. In addition, 95 times out of 100, Fedor will wreck him without having to even go to the ground.

Just because athletes train to perform a certain task, doesn't mean luck isn't a factor. If the task is difficult and only occurs a minority of the time, then it helps to encounter Lady Luck in the actual competition when you need to make it happen. How hard they work or how much they train is irrelevant. What is relevant is how much of the time they are successful; if the longshot occurs.... LUCK.
There is a gamble involved in MMA, or any other sport. When a low percentage event works out, that is luck.

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

It's the most relevant. Everyone's just really good at it.

 

[Rod1]

Honestly right now... and I think most people know this at heart... This isn't the case for everyone, but for most fighters:

MMA is just MMA in 2010. It's getting harder and harder to distill and separate different components of MMA. Obviously, when Little Nog does the deep half guard or Karo does a Judo throw, it becomes easy to say where that came from. It's pretty obvious to me we are already into the era of MMA where the MMA athlete is just an MMA athlete, not the product of different skill sets, even though they obviously still need to be trained separately, then brought together.

Agreed, MMA fighters are MMA fighters.

Its like saying BJJ is relevant in Judo, sure it is, but the rules are different therefore the training focus are different.

In that sense pure BJJ is not good enough to win anymore, even when the fight goes to the ground.

Good wrestling, good striking and good top game are becoming pretty much mandatory to effectively use BJJ.

Its idiotic to say that all the wrestling champs are now "BJJ guys" because they train BJJ or another form of sub grappling, its as retarded as saying that wrestling is the most important thing, take a wrestler and put him in sub grappling and he loses in a minute.

They are all important, you can't say one is more important than the other. BJJ is evolving as a sport on its own, and therefore its being specialized for its rules and there are thousands of BJJ practitioners with no interest on MMA.

An example is the topic said about Couture BJJ BB, people say its not a true BJJ BB because Couture is nogi, but Couture is a great ground grappler. The reason is simple BJJ its one thing and submission grappling in an MMA ruleset is another.

This in no way means there is no transition, obviously a BJJ black belt will be able to implement a good game in MMA with little training, but it doesn't means he will be any good.

 

[lechien]

An example is the topic said about Couture BJJ BB, people say its not a true BJJ BB because Couture is nogi, but Couture is a great ground grappler. The reason is simple BJJ its one thing and submission grappling in an MMA ruleset is another.

.

Couture does NOT have a BJJ BB because Neil who gave him a BB in his style is a submission grappler from catch wrestling and has NO ties/qaulifications with BJJ.

If he gave a BB without the red tab, there will have been no confusion for the UFC watchers.