Is BJJ still relevant in modern MMA (Blog post)

[Bucketbot]

Hey everyone,

I maintain a blog. The blog typically deals with science/skepticism.

I post on a variety of different topics ranging from science, space, medicine, critical thinking, etc. Additionally, i like to focus a "skeptical eye" on subjects such as fact vs fiction in movies, firearms, martial arts, etc.

I recently did a post on BJJ/MMA. Specfically, a post dealing with the question of whether or not BJJ is still relevant in modern MMA (here is a hint, in my humble opinion it still is!).

I Thought that some of my fellow sherdoggers might be interested, so i thought that i would post a link here:

Skepticism and BJJ/MMA The Skeptical Samurai

If the topic interests you...
When you have a moment, please take a look!

Please feel free to comment (here on the sherdog forums, or even better on the blog itself). I would love to here from you (comments, suggestions, corrections, constructive criticism are all welcome!)

look forward to hearing from you

 

[juji gatame**]

Didn't even read it.

If you don't have training in BJJ then you lose. /retardedness.

 

[YellowFury]

way to be open minded (is confused if you were being sarcastic or not)

 

[fourfif**]

after what happened to fedor I don't think there is a question in anyone's mind how important BJJ (or some form of submission grappling) is to MMA.

 

[206warrior]

after what happened to fedor I don't think there is a question in anyone's mind how important BJJ is to MMA.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[fourfif**]

What is that supposed to mean?

not to be a dick, but what the hell do you think it means?

that shit wasn't written in code.

 

[nni]

Lol at guys criticizing TS without reading the blog.

FYI in TS's blog:

This has led some individuals to proclaim that BJJ is obsolete and no longer relevant in MMA today.

I would argue that nothing could be further from the truth.

BJJ is an extremely effective martial art (in my opinion it is one of, if not the, most effective martial arts). BJJ is also extremely effective for use in self defence.

Try not commenting on something you haven't read, to avoid looking like an idiot.

 

[akharon]

I think you're attacking the wrong thing. While people may say that BJJ is becoming irrelevant, what they're actually saying when you get past the tagline is that guard offense is becoming obsolete. Witness Jon Fitch speaking regarding Marquardt vs Sonnen for an example. Fitch is a GuerillaJJ BB, he understands guard work, but the thing is at the high level MMA game, you're typically not going to keep a guy in your guard and catch him in a submission. For a counterpoint, look at Fedor vs Werdum, or Silva vs Sonnen.

There's much more to BJJ than just guard work. It's a big portion, but there's a lot of other positions, submissions, etc that encompass BJJ. You have to remember that people are going to say or print controversial things to catch your eye, and once you get to the meat of it, they're still saying what we knew already - it's better to be in top mount than bottom guard.

Just keep training, and don't worry about the pundits. Use what works, ditch the rest.

 

[irc]

What is that supposed to mean?

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

 

[tysnw]

great article
i agree with your points
bjj is nowhere near the secret weapon guaranteed to win fights, but crucial for every fighter, regardless of style.

but btw you misspelled frate train.

 

[Drew Foster]

not to be a dick, but what the hell do you think it means?

that shit wasn't written in code.

I was thinking the exact same thing haha!

 

[tysnw]

I think you're attacking the wrong thing. While people may say that BJJ is becoming irrelevant, what they're actually saying when you get past the tagline is that guard offense is becoming obsolete. Witness Jon Fitch speaking regarding Marquardt vs Sonnen for an example. Fitch is a GuerillaJJ BB, he understands guard work, but the thing is at the high level MMA game, you're typically not going to keep a guy in your guard and catch him in a submission. For a counterpoint, look at Fedor vs Werdum, or Silva vs Sonnen.

There's much more to BJJ than just guard work. It's a big portion, but there's a lot of other positions, submissions, etc that encompass BJJ. You have to remember that people are going to say or print controversial things to catch your eye, and once you get to the meat of it, they're still saying what we knew already - it's better to be in top mount than bottom guard.

Just keep training, and don't worry about the pundits. Use what works, ditch the rest.

kesting believes that the guard is a 50/50 position.
if you're fighting a guy with no idea of ground fighting and he's in your guard, you're actually almost guaranteed to submit him easily a la ufc 1 (if you're of a certain standard, of course).
how the hell do you defend a triangle choke if you've never seen a triangle choke before?
however, if you're fighting a experienced fighter, he knows what's possible and he's going to stifle your sweep/submission attempts.

i think the key point here is the element of surprise.

 

[lechien]

I read the blog and I found it boring.

 

[akharon]

kesting believes that the guard is a 50/50 position.
if you're fighting a guy with no idea of ground fighting and he's in your guard, you're actually almost guaranteed to submit him easily a la ufc 1 (if you're of a certain standard, of course).
how the hell do you defend a triangle choke if you've never seen a triangle choke before?
however, if you're fighting a experienced fighter, he knows what's possible and he's going to stifle your sweep/submission attempts.

i think the key point here is the element of surprise.

Agreed. However, at the elite levels of MMA, you have to be at a high level to slap a triangle on everyone (a la Demian Maia). Most people know the setups and such, but you're not as likely to surprise anyone. The only thing you can do from there is tighten your game up. Just like has been discussed in the past, Roger Gracie doesn't surprise people with his collar chokes, he simply has such an effective game that people know what's coming but can't stop it.

If someone has no knowledge of the standup game, you can do the same thing, "tricking" him with setup punches and kicks, and so on, but to do that at a high level, you have to have Anderson Silva-level striking. It's possible, but you just can't think that you're gonna walk all over everyone because you know a 1-2 combo.

 

[206warrior]

after what happened to fedor I don't think there is a question in anyone's mind how important BJJ (or some form of submission grappling) is to MMA.

Fedor is a world class sambo fighter, he knows his submissions. Sambo entails quite a bit of submission work, but he also did judo which involves newaza. If you think that fedor just didn't know what a triangle was or how to defend against it, you are ridiculous. Fedor thought he hurt Werdum more then he did, or he wouldn't have jumped into a dry guard of a BJJ world champ. It was a win for Werdum, not BJJ. It is like the equivalent of a knockout, it just happened, he beat Fedor. It wasn't Fedors lack of a submission game, but a tactical mistake.

 

[Drew Foster]

Hey everyone,

I maintain a blog. The blog typically deals with science/skepticism.

I post on a variety of different topics ranging from science, space, medicine, critical thinking, etc. Additionally, i like to focus a "skeptical eye" on subjects such as fact vs fiction in movies, firearms, martial arts, etc.

I recently did a post on BJJ/MMA. Specfically, a post dealing with the question of whether or not BJJ is still relevant in modern MMA (here is a hint, in my humble opinion it still is!).

I Thought that some of my fellow sherdoggers might be interested, so i thought that i would post a link here:

Skepticism and BJJ/MMA The Skeptical Samurai

If the topic interests you...
When you have a moment, please take a look!

Please feel free to comment (here on the sherdog forums, or even better on the blog itself). I would love to here from you (comments, suggestions, corrections, constructive criticism are all welcome!)

look forward to hearing from you

I liked the blog post. I was actually hoping for more though, and right when I got into the groove of what you were saying, it kinda seemed like you threw those 2 examples out there at then cut it.

But as far as what you said, I mean it's correct. Every year people say that BJJ is obsolete, etc, but every year we see crazier submissions and submission defense than the year before. I think it's pretty obvious to any serious MMA fan that wrestling has shown itself to be the most important base in MMA, for obvious reasons. The better wrestler will almost always control where the fight takes place.

I think it would've been nice to mention Chael Sonnen along with Fedor. Both lost in different circumstances, but in the same fashion. Fedor had terrible game planning and beats Werdum on the feet 9.9/10 times. Diving headfirst into a world champion's guard is not smart. On the other hand, Sonnen had a great gameplan, dominated 23 minutes of a fight, and was caught with a Nogueira style triangle as Silva shot one up at the end. I'd even venture to say that Chris Leben's triangle is a good example. This seems to be the year for big wins from the bottom.

Since everything in MMA is improving, I tend to be in the chool of thought that everything will kind of balance itself out in terms of ratios of submissions, KOs, and decisions. If you look at the stats, there's still almost a 33% chance of fights going in any of those 3 ways. It's been that way for the majority of the past 5 years, with decisions being slightly ahead of strike stoppages/knockouts, and submissions both following the decision wins. Still, I see the 33% average sticking for a while.

 

[YellowFury]

great article
i agree with your points
bjj is nowhere near the secret weapon guaranteed to win fights, but crucial for every fighter, regardless of style.

but btw you misspelled frate train.

it is spelled freight.

 

[Drew Foster]

Fedor is a world class sambo fighter, he knows his submissions. Sambo entails quite a bit of submission work, but he also did judo which involves newaza. If you think that fedor just didn't know what a triangle was or how to defend against it, you are ridiculous. Fedor thought he hurt Werdum more then he did, or he wouldn't have jumped into a dry guard of a BJJ world champ. It was a win for Werdum, not BJJ. It is like the equivalent of a knockout, it just happened, he beat Fedor. It wasn't Fedors lack of a submission game, but a tactical mistake.

I'm sorry, not to speak for FOURFIF, but where exactly did he say that Fedor doesn't know what a triangle is or how to defend it?

I think he meant to imply that diving into the guard of a world champ and ADCC champ was not smart. Fedor could have incredible triangle defense, but against a guy with the guard skills of Werdum, it is never going to be good enough.

Of course it wasn't a "win for BJJ" but it is a great and current example of how some things never change. It does show why the triangle is the most common submission in BJJ and submission grappling.

No one said it wasn't a tactical mistake, but to say that it wasn't Fedor's lack of submission game is also a mistake. There's a balance here. Yes, it was a tactical error and no one is saying Fedor doesn't know submissions. But Fedor was unable to escape the triangle after trying very hard too. Werdum deserves a lot of credit.

"It is like the equivalent t of a knockout, it just happened." What does that mean?

If I'm reading it correctly, it seems like you're saying a knockout or submission win is like a lucky punch... There's no such thing. If you aim for someone's head and hit them, it's not lucky. That's what you tried to do. Same with Werdum's triangle. It didn't just "happen." He attempted, and finishes, a triangle choke. It wasn't an accident.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that it just happened... Can you clarify this?

 

[Drew Foster]

Fedor is a world class sambo fighter, he knows his submissions. Sambo entails quite a bit of submission work, but he also did judo which involves newaza. If you think that fedor just didn't know what a triangle was or how to defend against it, you are ridiculous. Fedor thought he hurt Werdum more then he did, or he wouldn't have jumped into a dry guard of a BJJ world champ. It was a win for Werdum, not BJJ. It is like the equivalent of a knockout, it just happened, he beat Fedor. It wasn't Fedors lack of a submission game, but a tactical mistake.

You read WAY too much into what @fourfif said.

 

[tysnw]

it is spelled freight.

or is it?