International/Olympic wrestling discussion.

[jack36767]

I don't know Jack. The ancient Olympic Wrestling was a submission style. Wrestlers also competed in Pankration.
Wrestling is the best base for mma so there is not the reason to be a feeder program for mma.

The goal is the second of your list. Today Spain grab a third place in Grappling and you have a new competitive nation in another WRESTLING style.

I dont have time or patience to explain the concept of legitimacy and how that affects both the investment and quality of a martial art.

Like I said. If you want to add gimmick styles to help with making irrelevant countries “competitive”. Thus helping wrestling stay popular.. that’s fine.

Just understand that those countries are competitive not because they did the hard hard work of fundraising, training, development of own talent to be able to compete with the best in the world. They simply went to the style with low numbers and less depth to be competitive.

 

[jack36767]

I actually think international folkstyle would be really fascinating.

It would. The Russians would be competitive right away still. A lot more Americans would look at going overseas as well

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

I don't know Jack. The ancient Olympic Wrestling was a submission style. Wrestlers also competed in Pankration.
Wrestling is the best base for mma so there is not the reason to be a feeder program for mma.

The goal is the second of your list. Today Spain grab a third place in Grappling and you have a new competitive nation in another WRESTLING style.

Well, the UWW grappling can't be wrestling. That happens because of one fact: No spats. Without balls in the face, without jacked men in tight clothes, and without embarrassing situations(that one fortunately have in grappling, but with the lycra clothes it would be potentialized in the ideal level ) it can't be rassilin. Anyways, i think that the rules are cool, maybe Brazil and some western countries can get some medals. So, yeah, we hope that the spats are added in the next editions and maybe, with the support of the pink money, Grappling can finally be a olympic sport.

 

[Grappler111]

Well, the UWW grappling can't be wrestling.

It is not Freestyle or Folkstyle or Greco Roman Wrestling but Grappling is a Wrestling style like Catch as Catch Can or Luta Livre.

 

[Grappler111]

I dont have time or patience to explain the concept of legitimacy and how that affects both the investment and quality of a martial art.

Like I said. If you want to add gimmick styles to help with making irrelevant countries “competitive”. Thus helping wrestling stay popular.. that’s fine.

Just understand that those countries are competitive not because they did the hard hard work of fundraising, training, development of own talent to be able to compete with the best in the world. They simply went to the style with low numbers and less depth to be competitive.

For a nation like Italy or Spain it is impossible to compete long term with wrestling powers like Russia or USA. Why? There is not the cultural base and the main ingredient : numbers. In a country where 90 % of the sport is soccer is very difficult to have a wrestling olympians. Not the entire team of wrestlers have a talent for Greco or Freestyle so if you have 3 young wrestlers of 10 good in freestyle/greco the others could have qualities for Grappling or Beach Wrestling.

Not all the nations have Wrestling like national sport or inside the education system.

 

[jack36767]

For a nation like Italy or Spain it is impossible to compete long term with wrestling powers like Russia or USA. Why? There is not the cultural base and the main ingredient : numbers. In a country where 90 % of the sport is soccer is very difficult to have a wrestling olympians. Not the entire team of wrestlers have a talent for Greco or Freestyle so if you have 3 young wrestlers of 10 good in freestyle/greco the others could have qualities for Grappling or Beach Wrestling.

Not all the nations have Wrestling like national sport or inside the education system.

Yes it can. It’s just not easy.

Where I coach. There is no existing culture for wrestling. The wrestling that does exist is garbage. There isn’t even a grappling culture. With very limited boxing. What little the people know about wrestling is almost negative detrimental stereotypes about weight cutting and training.

The first day I ran workouts. One kid showed up. The first season. It was an accomplishment getting kids to be at practice every day. If i had your attitude I’d have just given up… I didnt.. because I understood that I had to not just coach.. but build the culture and support.. which I have. It’s hard work though. You have to constantly recruit and promote. You also underestimate how much less support wrestling has than the other sports.

Countries in Africa and Central/south America are doing the things needed to actually build something even if it doesn’t exist. And don’t try to tell me that Soccer isn’t as popular and dominant there as it is in Italy. They are improving and doing the long hard process

You’re not actually willing to do the required work. You just want the prestige without the work.. hence why you tried to pass off the Cuban as an Italian product until directly called out.. and why you hype your beach boy champ and want the new styles added.

 

[jack36767]

Furthermore. What do you think will happen if the US and Russia decide to take those styles seriously.. come up with another style to stay ahead..

 

[Grappler111]

Yes it can. It’s just not easy.

Where I coach. There is no existing culture for wrestling. The wrestling that does exist is garbage. There isn’t even a grappling culture. With very limited boxing. What little the people know about wrestling is almost negative detrimental stereotypes about weight cutting and training.

The first day I ran workouts. One kid showed up. The first season. It was an accomplishment getting kids to be at practice every day. If i had your attitude I’d have just given up… I didnt.. because I understood that I had to not just coach.. but build the culture and support.. which I have. It’s hard work though. You have to constantly recruit and promote. You also underestimate how much less support wrestling has than the other sports.

Countries in Africa and Central/south America are doing the things needed to actually build something even if it doesn’t exist. And don’t try to tell me that Soccer isn’t as popular and dominant there as it is in Italy. They are improving and doing the long hard process

You’re not actually willing to do the required work. You just want the prestige without the work.. hence why you tried to pass off the Cuban as an Italian product until directly called out.. and why you hype your beach boy champ and want the new styles added.

I'm not a coach. In my former gym I have see many strong Greco Roman wrestlers gain a national spot. After I have see also the failure at international level. I'm talking about a gym with over 100 athlete inside a small city. You don't know the Italian system and the trouble inside the federation.
In Africa wrestling is very popular and in some countries is the national sport.

 

[Grappler111]

Furthermore. What do you think will happen if the US and Russia decide to take those styles seriously.. come up with another style to stay ahead..

The same result of freestyle and greco.. after few years. Now Russia is the first power in Grappling. I think that Italy, Spain and Poland have a big chance to complete the podium. This is the result of a big work in recruitment and training.

 

[jack36767]

I'm not a coach. In my former gym I have see many strong Greco Roman wrestlers gain a national spot. After I have see also the failure at international level. I'm talking about a gym with over 100 athlete inside a small city. You don't know the Italian system and the trouble inside the federation.
In Africa wrestling is very popular and in some countries is the national sport.

I was mostly referring to building culture.. not just numbers… numbers are the easy part.. installing a culture conducive to building elite success is what takes time to build. Proper culture is what also helps those “strong” wrestlers become “good”.

And I highly doubt you have to deal with the administration of your area finding ways to eliminate wrestling teams to save money and because they don’t like wrestling. No I’m not exaggerating or making that up.

Obviously you aren’t a coach. If you were, what you said would tell you that the issue is culture, coaching and then match tactics… IF you are telling the truth about how “strong” the wrestlers were.. which can easily be doubted due to you being a homer. Oh and yeah.. you ignored my point about the south/Central American countries.. lol

Since you don’t actually understand or have any idea how to actually build something the right way way internally.. you want the easy way out. Get a style no serious country takes fully serious yet.

The same result of freestyle and greco.. after few years. Now Russia is the first power in Grappling. I think that Italy, Spain and Poland have a big chance to complete the podium. This is the result of a big work in recruitment and training.

No. What will happen is. When the country’s with established REAL development systems, with the proper approach and begin to take it seriously… your teams will be regulated to the status of your Greco teams.. because the underlying issues will be there still..

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

It is not Freestyle or Folkstyle or Greco Roman Wrestling but Grappling is a Wrestling style like Catch as Catch Can or Luta Livre.

I know, i was just kidding. I mean, Let's be honest, grappling is way more bigger and have way more presence worldwide than folkstyle wrestling. IMO, UWW grappling is making a really good movement inserting this modality in their organization.

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

I dont have time or patience to explain the concept of legitimacy and how that affects both the investment and quality of a martial art.

Like I said. If you want to add gimmick styles to help with making irrelevant countries “competitive”. Thus helping wrestling stay popular.. that’s fine.

Just understand that those countries are competitive not because they did the hard hard work of fundraising, training, development of own talent to be able to compete with the best in the world. They simply went to the style with low numbers and less depth to be competitive.

Jack, i completely disagree. Lets be honest, grappling already have a OK depth. Jiu Jitsu and Sambo athtles can be gather by the rules of UWW grappling. It's not a gimmick modality, it's different from, as exemple, beach wrestling. I mean, yeah, isn't olympic, but there is people already living from the sport and there is a good quantity of competitors. If, suppose, UWW grappling became olympic, the modality would not be the little brother of Freestyle Wrestling, it, imo, would be the same or even bigger, but without the same history for sure.

 

[jack36767]

Jack, i completely disagree. Lets be honest, grappling already have a OK depth. Jiu Jitsu and Sambo athtles can be gather by the rules of UWW grappling. It's not a gimmick modality, it's different from, as exemple, beach wrestling. I mean, yeah, isn't olympic, but there is people already living from the sport and there is a good quantity of competitors. If, suppose, UWW grappling became olympic, the modality would not be the little brother of Freestyle Wrestling, it, imo, would be the same or even bigger, but without the same history for sure.

Maybe eventually. But the reason it is being promoted by the individual in question is to make an irrelevant country get its own medals.

If it becomes a big deal. The same reasons that country struggles in freestyle will come to the fore in whatever martial art comes beside or replaces it.

Furthermore. Grappling does not have nearly the same depth and width of high level training, coaching and sports science that wrestling does. Getting a bronze at beach wrasslin or grappling worlds is much much easier than in wrestling.

I don’t have an issue with grappling personally. What I have an issue with is it being promoted as a substitute for building proper coaching, culture and development

 

[Grappler111]

I was mostly referring to building culture.. not just numbers… numbers are the easy part.. installing a culture conducive to building elite success is what takes time to build. Proper culture is what also helps those “strong” wrestlers become “good”.

And I highly doubt you have to deal with the administration of your area finding ways to eliminate wrestling teams to save money and because they don’t like wrestling. No I’m not exaggerating or making that up.

Obviously you aren’t a coach. If you were, what you said would tell you that the issue is culture, coaching and then match tactics… IF you are telling the truth about how “strong” the wrestlers were.. which can easily be doubted due to you being a homer. Oh and yeah.. you ignored my point about the south/Central American countries.. lol

Since you don’t actually understand or have any idea how to actually build something the right way way internally.. you want the easy way out. Get a style no serious country takes fully serious yet.

No. What will happen is. When the country’s with established REAL development systems, with the proper approach and begin to take it seriously… your teams will be regulated to the status of your Greco teams.. because the underlying issues will be there still..

I'm not ignore your point about Africa. You ignore the wrestling tradition of Africa.
You are talking about building culture but you are clearly contrary other international styles like Beach Wrestling. If you want to create culture peaple must know wrestling. Beach Wrestling is an easy way to expose the sport in a positive environment without big structures, equipments and money.

Grappling is not a sobstitute of Freestyle. It is a different form of Wrestling with strong connection with ancient Greek ruleset. Actually this submission form is very popular in Italy.
We have a different vision and you don't know the power of soccer in Italy. 99% of children's first sport is soccer a discipline where you can gain millions or develop a serious carrer. So outside soccer and others team sports you start with ridiculous numbers and a national federation in total confusion (it is not independent but you have also judo and karate in the same structure) unable to develop athletes at senior international level.

Last week Italy won Olympic medals in athletic and you can see the numbers of real italians...

 

[Grappler111]

.

No. What will happen is. When the country’s with established REAL development systems, with the proper approach and begin to take it seriously… your teams will be regulated to the status of your Greco teams.. because the underlying issues will be there still..

Again I disagree. In Italy Grappling is not under the same national federation. The president is a former freestyle wrestler with a modern vision of the sport. He has create a very big network of gyms and an effective coaching system.

 

[jack36767]

I'm not ignore your point about Africa. You ignore the wrestling tradition of Africa. Grappling is not a sobstitute of Freestyle. It is a different form of Wrestling with strong connection with ancient Greek ruleset. Actually this submission form is very popular in Italy.
We have a different vision and you don't understand the power of soccer in Europe. 99% of children first sport is soccer a sport where you can gain millions. So you start with ridiculous numbers and a national federation in total confusion (it is not independent but you have also judo and karate in the same structure) unable to develop athletes at international level.

Last week Italy won Olympic medals in athletic and you can see the numbers of real italians...

Couple things buddy.

1. I said you ignored my point about Central and South America.. not about Africa. That’s literally twice you’ve deliberately not paid attention to what I said. Also, those African countries are investing in their freestyle teams.. they aren’t giving up on improving their freestyle team to just promote beach wrestling..
2. I never said Italy doesn’t have athletes. And don't compare the skill sets and requirements for medals in athletics to those for combat sports. It makes you look ignorant.
   
3. Stop it with the “it’s like the ancient Olympics” crap. Anything short of no holds bared fights with unlimited time isn’t actually what the Greeks and Romans did.
   
4. You are deliberately ignoring the popularity and millions to be made in Basketball, baseball and football in America. I’m also well aware of how popular soccer is. Half of your comments depend on the incorrect assumption that I’m an uneducated American who doesnt study, interact and understand other cultures. It would help if you lost that stupid assumption

I actually like Grappling. Which is why the way and reasons you promote it are irksome. Instead of letting it gain legitimacy properly as a sport just as legitimate as the rest.. you promote it because it’s the easiest way for your country to get medals without doing the actual work to compete with the big boys. It makes grappling look like what the rejects of freestyle and Greco have to do to feel good about themselves. Which is insulting to the people who were into grappling from the get go.

And stop with the excuses for your country.. If your country is producing “strong” wrestlers with clubs that big in multiple smaller cities.. they should be doing much much better than they are by simple math. There are no senior level clubs on the US with over 50 members.. so instead of blaming your administration. Look at the coaching and attitudes like yours.

The simple fact is. Your country could actually do much better in freestyle/Greco. It would be a long hard difficult process. Building something with own developed athletes always is. Especially if working on institutional change. Instead of doing that You want the easy way out. That’s fine. Just admit it. State reality as is.

and please look up difference between Africa and Central South America if you don’t know.. being deliberately misquoted 3 times would be irksome

 

[Grappler111]

Couple things buddy.

1. I said you ignored my point about Central and South America.. not about Africa. That’s literally twice you’ve deliberately not paid attention to what I said. Also, those African countries are investing in their freestyle teams.. they aren’t giving up on improving their freestyle team to just promote beach wrestling..

I don't known know the central and now South America sport and I don't see interesting results in wrestling except Cuba.

I never said Italy doesn’t have athletes. And don't compare the skill sets and requirements for medals in athletics to those for combat sports. It makes you look ignorant.

My point of view is different. You could read better...

Stop it with the “it’s like the ancient Olympics” crap. Anything short of no holds bared fights with unlimited time isn’t actually what the Greeks and Romans did.

Grappling is close to ancient Greek wrestling than folkstyle. You deliberately invent sentences...

you are deliberately ignoring the popularity and millions to be made in Basketball, baseball and football in America. I’m also well aware of how popular soccer is. Half of your comments depend on the incorrect assumption that I’m an uneducated American who doesnt study, interact and understand other cultures. It would help if you lost that stupid assumption
I actually like Grappling. Which is why the way and reasons you promote it are irksome. Instead of letting it gain legitimacy properly as a sport just as legitimate as the rest.. you promote it because it’s the easiest way for your country to get medals without doing the actual work to compete with the big boys. It makes grappling look like what the rejects of freestyle and Greco have to do to feel good about themselves. Which is insulting to the people who were into grappling from the get go.

If one athlete is not good in freestyle and very good in submission is not a reject.
You have a funny vision of the sport.

with the excuses for your country.. If your country is producing “strong” wrestlers with clubs that big in multiple smaller cities.. they should be doing much much better than they are by simple math. There are no senior level clubs on the US with over 50 members.. so instead of blaming your administration. Look at the coaching and attitudes like yours.

The simple fact is. Your country could actually do much better in freestyle/Greco. It would be a long hard difficult process. Building something with own developed athletes always is. Especially if working on institutional change. Instead of doing that You want the easy way out. That’s fine. Just admit it. State reality as is.

and please look up difference between Africa and Central South America if you don’t know.. being deliberately misquoted 3 times would be irksome

You totally built sentence. I had wrote one city and 100 wrestlers overall not 100 seniors. And yes if 5 wrestlers are national champions with matches in German Bundesliga I think that they are strong wrestlers.
Are you nervous for the last geopolitical debacle?

 

[Grappler111]

Junior world championships Freestyle wrestling and Greco Roman

https://uww.org/event/world-championships-54

 

[jack36767]

I don't known know the central and now South America sport and I don't see interesting results in wrestling except Cuba.

They’ve steadily improved and brought in coaches from Cuba Iran and Russia. They’re taking the proper steps. Such things don’t happen overnight. Again, I know you haven’t coached so you don’t understand. Its not that your country can’t develop its own talent. It doesn’t know how.. based off what youve said

and it’s okay buddy. You want your country to be relevant. So you are promoting the easiest path to avoid playing with the big boy countries.

 

[Kforcer]

I know, i was just kidding. I mean, Let's be honest, grappling is way more bigger and have way more presence worldwide than folkstyle wrestling. IMO, UWW grappling is making a really good movement inserting this modality in their organization.

Scholastic wrestling is pretty huge, just because it is the wrestling style of the United States. People from all over the world come and train in American scholastic wrestling, from Russia, Japan, etc. And then you have its international presence via mixed martial arts and actually, grappling as well, where so many scholastic wrestlers become champions, coaches and teammates of countless people outside of America, thus extending the influence of scholastic wrestling beyond the boundaries of its actual competitions.