Economy Industrial High Tech (Redux)

[Deorum]

BTW https://seekingalpha.com/news/3648384-tsmc-may-announce-record-high-capex-of-20b-in-2021

TSMC is going to go on some serious Capex spending here.

B-2 is an odd plane even for a stealth. It is amazing how well they have done and our XP with them will be a deterrent to China that only has XP killing it's own people.

Yes, seems many of the airplane projects go Pentagon Wargames on us. F-35, the Osprey, the Boeing tanker based on the 767 etc

Pure Filth.

The Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit is an American heavy strategic bomber, featuring low observable stealth technology designed for penetrating dense anti-aircraft defenses. The bomber can deploy both conventional and thermonuclear weapons, such as eighty 500-pound class (230 kg) Mk 82 JDAM Global Positioning System guided bombs, or sixteen 2,400-pound (1,100 kg) B83 nuclear bombs. The B-2 is the only acknowledged aircraft that can carry large air-to-surface standoff weapons in a stealth configuration.

The B-2's low-observable characteristics enable the undetected penetration of sophisticated anti-aircraft defenses and to strike even heavily defended targets. This stealth comes from a combination of reduced acoustic, infrared, visual and radar signatures (multi-spectral camouflage) to evade the various detection systems that could be used to detect and direct attacks against an aircraft. The B-2 enables the reduction of supporting aircraft that are required to provide air cover, suppression of enemy air defenses and electronic countermeasures, making the bomber a force multiplier.

The clean, low-drag flying wing configuration not only provides exceptional range but is also beneficial to reducing its radar profile. The flying wing design most closely resembles a so-called infinite flat plate, the perfect stealth shape, as it would lack angles to reflect back radar waves. Without vertical surfaces to reflect radar laterally, side aspect radar cross section is also reduced. The B-2 is composed of many curved and rounded surfaces across its exposed airframe to deflect radar beams. This technique, known as continuous curvature, was made possible by advances in computational fluid dynamics.

 

[Deorum]

TSMC is going to go on some serious Capex spending here.

... And this is even after dumping Huawei orders at the behest of the United States. They're on fire right now and I don't think I've properly expressed how huge it is that they're investing in American manufacturing, nevermind in my city. It isn't going to stop with one $12 billion fabrication plant once they get a taste of the convenience the local industry ecosystem and supply chain here provides. I mean, it's obviously significant factor in why they chose Arizona to begin with but it's a different thing when the investment yields dividends.

 

[Deorum]

 

[ElKarlo]

... And this is even after dumping Huawei orders at the behest of the United States. They're on fire right now and I don't think I've properly expressed how huge it is that they're investing in American manufacturing, nevermind in my city. It isn't going to stop with one $12 billion fabrication plant once they get a taste of the convenience the local industry ecosystem and supply chain here provides. I mean, it's obviously significant factor in why they chose Arizona to begin with but it's a different thing when the investment yields dividends.

Honestly didn’t see them going this route. They always seemed like Compaq to WinTel where they did the low margin stuff for Apple and what not. Plus they bought Sharp which does displays, which are low margin as well.
I think Arizona and perhaps Wisconsin later will have enough gravity to maintain what they have plus attract more investments

 

[Deorum]

Honestly didn’t see them going this route. They always seemed like Compaq to WinTel where they did the low margin stuff for Apple and what not. Plus they bought Sharp which does displays, which are low margin as well.
I think Arizona and perhaps Wisconsin later will have enough gravity to maintain what they have plus attract more investments

It pretty much puts Greater Phoenix permanently on the map. The two largest equipment and machinery firms (Applied Materials & ASML) both have manufacturing based here; the largest IDM in the world (Intel) has the majority of its global production based here and now it just secured the world's largest pure play foundry with TSMC. There are also several major local suppliers of the industrial chemicals and gases used for IC manufacturing.

 

[Deorum]

The city has become a hotbed of industrial tech manufacturing not just because Intel decided to plant its flag here in the 1980s. It was significant for sure, but today Phoenix-Metro also has a deep talented labor pool, good educational infrastructure and friendly business environment with a high quality of life, low cost of living and plentiful supply of land. Arizona State has been named the most innovative university in the country for the last six consecutive years by US News & World Report and its Ira A. Fulton School of Engineering has over 20,000 students enrolled.

 

[nhbfan8080]

You mean "Beijing Biden"? If his Admin is just an extension of the Obama era then I'm not too concerned. It was actually the Obama White House that started the policy of (inorganic) FDI restrictions and export controls on the CCP; Trump just continued and accelerated them. The Deep Tech State is also a thing - namely CFIUS - and it simply won't allow U.S. tech assets to be sold off and out to the highest bidder.

Whats with the Beijing Biden meme? And China isn't happy with Biden over the HK issue and his plan to build an alliance to counter China.

Trump otoh is unprincipled and will bend the knee to whomever is willing to give him money because he and his whole Trump empire is broke. He pulled troops out of Syria because he's receiving millions from an Erdogan ally.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...ss-connections-turkey-back-spotlight-n1064011

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/201...ria-conflict-of-interest-istanbul-towers.html

 

[Deorum]

Whats with the Beijing Biden meme?

@PolishHeadlock2

I was using it sarcastically, I'm not even really sure. I do know that Nancy Pelosi is the most staunchly anti-CCP politician in American history, that she's still Madam Speaker, and will have the Biden Admin's ear on a daily basis. A lot of people talk "CCP this and CCP that" but don't actually know much about the CCP. I made a thread dedicated to the Chinese Communist Party and on the whole, was less than impressed by the WR's collective knowledge. It had nothing to teach me tbh, although there definitely were some quality posts in there.

 

[nhbfan8080]

T
.................
In a country that values profit over patriotism, it's great to have multinationals who decide to plant their own corporate flag firmly on U.S. soil. The American semiconductor industry doesn't base a majority of its production in the United States necessarily out of loyalty, but more pragmatic reasons of IP protection and legit concern over industrial espionage (they do not base production in the People's Republic of China). The result and benefit to the country is the same, and for what it's worth they're also far from being the most egregious beneficiaries of government subsidies and tax breaks. In fact, they probably deserve more of them if remaining on the cutting edge of technology is a national priority. It's doubly beneficial when companies based in nations of geopolitical allies make foreign direct capital investments in American manufacturing and stateside job creation.
................

As far as the aforementioned "CHIPS For America Act", it's an obvious no-brainer for automatic acceptance and chump change given the spending of the federal government these days. It probably doesn't go far enough in some respects given how capital intensive and difficult it is to set up a modern semiconductor fabrication manufacturing plant: An investment tax credit of 40% for semiconductor equipment or facility costs through 2024; $12 billion towards R&D in a variety of subindustries, related fields, and training programs; $10 billion in federal matching to local and state funding in support of advanced manufacturing; $750 million in support of transparency, policy negotiations with foreign powers, and consistency in the semiconductor industry; new programs to boost the nationwide STEM workforce, 5G leadership, and advanced assembly; DoD funding for related projects including the Defense Production Act tie-ins to support rapid production as needed.
............

Being "far from the most egregious beneficiaries of government subsidies and tax breaks" is putting an optimistic spin on it. These high tech company always get away scot free by not paying any taxes or only a small fraction through tax avoidance. They've been getting govt handouts since forever through all the ways you listed like tax credits, federal grants, DoD purchases/research funding and also through the unlisted funding through CIA, NSA-DoD.

 

[Deorum]

Being "far from the most egregious beneficiaries of government subsidies and tax breaks" is putting an optimistic spin on it. These high tech company always get away scot free by not paying any taxes or only a small fraction through tax avoidance. They've been getting govt handouts since forever through all the ways you listed like tax credits, federal grants, DoD purchases/research funding and also through the unlisted funding through CIA, NSA-DoD.

I'm not talking about soft tech like Alphabet or Amazon, the US incentives for the semiconductor industry are weak by comparison to other national governments; the federally funded R&D is weak. I guess It really comes down to whether or not we want the core technology of modern electronics that serve as the backbone of the digital economy to be produced in the United States. I do, and I'd prefer my city in particular to the capital of the world in this area. That's the goal, and I'm absolutely biased about it.

US incentives are on the lower end of the range, significantly below those available in Asian countries with an existing large semiconductor manufacturing footprint. Depending on the type of fab and the country in question, these incentives make up 40% to 70% of the cost advantage other countries have over the US. In some cases, the incentives are prioritized for national semiconductor manufacturing champions, but in many cases they are also available to multinational companies. The US can be competitive on taxation in some cases because of an effective tax rate that is significantly lower than the nominal corporate tax rate, as well as substantial reductions in state and local taxes in some locations. However, these state and local government incentives fall significantly short of the grants and direct cash incentives provided by other national governments.

 

[nhbfan8080]

I'm not talking about soft tech like Alphabet or Amazon, the US incentives for the semiconductor industry are weak by comparison to other national governments; the federally funded R&D is weak. I guess It really comes down to whether or not we want the core technology of modern electronics that serve as the backbone of the digital economy to be produced in the United States. I do, and I'd prefer my city in particular to the capital of the world in this area. That's the goal, and I'm absolutely biased about it.

........

Is a link to the source document available and what year is it for?

 

[Deorum]

Is a link to the source document available and what year is it for?

It was a screenshot I took from a BCG industry report while I was in exile from Sherdog and very recent. I'll try to see if I can pull up the full report for you, it was a pdf.

And yeah @ElKarlo hate Nancy all you want, I'm sure you have legitimate gripes with her as a legislator but Pelosi's record on China - as said many times over the last few weeks - must be respected.

Eat your heart out, @Jack V Savage.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...e-government-the-democrats-wont-save-you/amp/

Here is what Pelosi thinks about China:

“The report of the USTR investigation on China’s intellectual property theft is a good first step, but far more is need to confront the full range of China’s bad behavior. Beijing’s regulatory barriers, localization requirements, labor abuses, anticompetitive ‘Made in China 2025’ policy and many other unfair trade practices require a full and comprehensive response. The tariffs announced today should be used as a leverage point to negotiate more fair and open trade for U.S. products in China.”

This from a woman whose district in the state of California has seen a marked increase in trade with China. She both knows the economic benefit of China and the impact China trade has had on blue collar labor, as well as on the intellectual property often created in the Bay Area she represents. It’s true that governors and business representatives like doing business with China, but Washington is another animal with quite a different mindset.






https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Pelosi-on-China-A-voice-in-the-global-wilderness-3082494.php

June 29, 1998

CHINA -- It's not often that members of Congress find themselves running from police in foreign countries. But in September 1991, Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, had slipped out of her Beijing hotel room, with reporters and a crowd of curious followers in tow, and gone without official permission to Tiananmen Square.

Along with two other members of Congress, Pelosi unwrapped a banner that read, "To those who died for democracy in China." The decidedly undiplomatic delegation was immediately surrounded by police and Chinese "tourists" who pulled walkie-talkies from their backpacks.

Anybody watching Pelosi since San Francisco voters elected her to Congress in 1987 could find dozens of deliberate anti-China incidents orchestrated by the 58-year-old mother of five. She keeps a photo from the 1991 visit, displaying it occasionally on the floor of Congress.

Pelosi has emerged as a leading critic of the Chinese regime and of her own president, who she says has a bankrupt policy toward China. More often than not, she finds herself on the outside while Bill Clinton dines on chilled lobster with Chinese President Jiang Zemin.

While fellow Bay Area resident Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein was hosting a 1997 Blair House reception for her "oldest friend in China" - Jiang - Pelosi was across the street at a protest denouncing him as a despot.

"What do they expect me to say?" Pelosi asked. "That it's not OK for a Republican president to coddle dictators, but it's OK for a Democrat?"

https://www.salon.com/2006/11/20/pelosi_and_china/

November 21, 2006

There isn't a single legislator in either chamber of Congress who has been more aggressive in criticizing China over the past decade than Pelosi. It is no exaggeration to call her a cold warrior of the sternest mettle. First elected in 1986, she was galvanized by the Tiananmen incident in 1989 to put human rights in China at the top of her legislative priorities.

She's been consistent in her advocacy of Chinese human rights ever since. She led numerous congressional efforts to revoke China's "most favored nation" trade status under both the George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton administrations. She unveiled a protest banner on Tiananmen Square in 1991 to mark the two-year anniversary of the crackdown on the student-led protests. Some legislators talk a good game on China, and then refrain from actually introducing any legislation. Not Pelosi.

Could there be a worse choice, as far as the People's Republic of China is concerned, to be Speaker of the House? Not unless his name was Chiang Kai-shek, or Tojo. (Naturally, Taiwan's attitude is more favorable.)
.
.
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Even after earning the House Speakership, Pelosi continued to antagonize the Chinese regime, meeting with pro-democracy dissidents during another diplomatic trip in 2009, after pushing for a boycott of the Beijing Olympics in 2008.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Is Phoenix offering breaks on water and power usage? The UPW systems needed to accomdate mega plants are basically the equivalent of a medium to large city in terms of hyrdo and water.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Also, anyone know what the WPN estimate will be? Are they just focusing on 7nm and 5nm or are they going to fab 10+ for other companies?

They currently have roughly a >1000000 wpm total capability

 

[Deorum]

Is Phoenix offering breaks on water and power usage? The UPW systems needed to accomdate mega plants are basically the equivalent of a medium to large city in terms of hyrdo and water.

Also, anyone know what the WPN estimate will be? Are they just focusing on 7nm and 5nm or are they going to fab 10+ for other companies?

They currently have roughly a >1000000 wpm total capability

When TSMC first announced their intentions to invest in Arizona last year I was kind of expecting them to park right next to the Intel and Northrop Grumman factories in the suburb of Chandler, but they went with Phoenix proper. It just purchased a 1,130 acre tract of undeveloped land up north last month. The city is putting up $205 million on water infrastructure, wastewater improvements and a couple miles worth of streets. It will be a 5 nanometer fab with production of 20,000 wafers per month.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

When TSMC first announced their intentions to invest in Arizona last year I was kind of expecting them to park right next to the Intel and Northrop Grumman factories in the suburb of Chandler, but they went with Phoenix proper. It just purchased a 1,130 acre tract of undeveloped land up north last month. The city is putting up $205 million on water infrastructure, wastewater improvements and a couple miles worth of streets. It will be a 5 nanometer fab with production of 20,000 wafers per month.

Seriously, only 5nm -- figured they would still rock their larger production models (A10 and lower) for 3rd party deployment

20k wpd is basically about 2-3 million gallons of water per day.

 

[ElKarlo]

It pretty much puts Greater Phoenix permanently on the map. The two largest equipment and machinery firms (Applied Materials & ASML) both have manufacturing based here; the largest IDM in the world (Intel) has the majority of its global production based here and now it just secured the world's largest pure play foundry with TSMC. There are also several major local suppliers of the industrial chemicals and gases used for IC manufacturing.

As with all industry things tend to clump together. Not sure what semis really mesh with but they def will bring in high tech operators and makers. You guys definitely have the infrastructure and skills all lining up for the area to become the semi capital

 

[bobgeese]

Whats with the Beijing Biden meme? And China isn't happy with Biden over the HK issue and his plan to build an alliance to counter China.

Trump otoh is unprincipled and will bend the knee to whomever is willing to give him money because he and his whole Trump empire is broke. He pulled troops out of Syria because he's receiving millions from an Erdogan ally.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...ss-connections-turkey-back-spotlight-n1064011

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/201...ria-conflict-of-interest-istanbul-towers.html

For god sake stop embarrassing yourself and research Biden's history with China.

 

[Deorum]

As with all industry things tend to clump together. Not sure what semis really mesh with but they def will bring in high tech operators and makers. You guys definitely have the infrastructure and skills all lining up for the area to become the semi capital

 

[ElKarlo]

Wow, my godmother lives near the Cardinals stadium. Been there a lot, but not for 15 years now. Never realized it went so tech heavy. Back then it was mostly offices for major companies looking for cheaper places to have their employees do stuff.