Crime Incels: how online extremism is changing

No, it's not illogical or unrealistic. It's simply not how men do it.

Frankly, given what the red pill crowd says about women having to be more selective than men, the women's approach is consistent with that. If she has to careful with who she sleeps with then it makes sense to only be interested in the best available option and focus on achieving that, instead of accepting lesser quality men just because they're available. In that frame of reference, best available as the only option is logical and pretty reasonable.

What use is this information to a male in the dating market? Well for starters, if a guy wants to know why he's failing at garnering female attention, it's probably a good idea to understand how women are allocating their attention. Instead of applying the guy's perspective to dating, they should grasp what women are actually looking for and try to win that actual game.

If someone was asking me for advice, I would tell them that datnig apps are a bad time investment unless they're pretty high on the attractive scale. For most guys, they might be better served seeking women in real life where the relative options are much smaller. This would increase the chances that they fall towards the top of available men that a random woman encounters.

For example -- go to the library. The average guy isn't a bad catch at the library, there might maybe 1 male model level guy passing through the entire building over the course of a week. But on Tinder? He's in the same pool with hundreds of guys at that attractiveness level and so will almost never be the best looking guy that a girl sees while swiping through. But at the library on a Tuesday? He should take those odds.

That's how I would advise a guy to use that information.

Its “illogical” in that it contradicts what “average”, etc actually mean. “Average” does not denote the top 20%, it means more or less around the median of a given sample. Viewing 100 possible matches, rating 5 above average, 15 average, and the rest below average defies logical reasoning.

It is “unrealistic”, in that women who are legit average, and especially sub-average, should not have an expectation of locking down the tall, funny, rich guy. Though, “unrealistic” may not be the best term, given the data provided gives no indication of what these women actually expect to obtain in a mate.

I agree with the second part of your post. Guys (and gals) should get out more and actually talk to people more(and yeah, I’m aware of the irony of typing on a forum I visit daily).
 
I don’t see how that is relevant to whether or not obesity is being specialized. Whether or not SI Swimsuit has expanded their target demographics is irrelevant to the fact that she (1) is being marketed explicitly as a sex symbol, and (2) is overtly obese.
It's 100% relevant so long as you remember to ask and answer the question: Sex symbol to whom?

There is a difference between marketing a woman as a sex symbol to guys looking for women fuck vs. a sex symbol for women to feel sexy about themselves.

Women's magazines are filled with pictures of attractive women but the magazines aren't marketed to men. Why not? Because women get a large chunk of their sense of attractiveness and internal validation from looking at other women, not from how guys look at them. Sure, they like the attention but their internal dialogue is not driven by male indicators of sexual appeal.

Like a piece of advice that most guys should know is that, generally speaking, women don't dress to attract men. They dress for other women. They wear things that other women think is cute or well put together or will make other women jealous.
 
Its “illogical” in that it contradicts what “average”, etc actually mean. “Average” does not denote the top 20%, it means more or less around the median of a given sample. Viewing 100 possible matches, rating 5 above average, 15 average, and the rest below average defies logical reasoning.

It is “unrealistic”, in that women who are legit average, and especially sub-average, should not have an expectation of locking down the tall, funny, rich guy. Though, “unrealistic” may not be the best term, given the data provided gives no indication of what these women actually expect to obtain in a mate.

I agree with the second part of your post. Guys (and gals) should get out more and actually talk to people more(and yeah, I’m aware of the irony of typing on a forum I visit daily).
Like I said -- you're applying your interpretation of the question to someone else and there's no reason that your impression is universal. Layering one's decision making process onto someone else, let alone an entire gender, means that someone going to be wrong quite a lot. People have to accept that their way of doing things isn't the only way to look at a problem or solve it.

Women have been operating this way forever, it's arrogant if we expect them to suddenly apply the male model of rating attractiveness just because we've decided to codify it in some way.

To throw some random information in here: There's a reason heterosexual women find lesbian porn sexually arousing but heterosexual men do not feel the same about gay male porn.
 
Seems appropriate to this discussion.

https://youtube.com/shorts/jwh7KBtmzUo
I've seen this clip before and it's as absurd to me now as it was the first time.

First, women leave 70-80% of the time would indicate that the marriage isn't working for women. Yet the takeaway people want us to draw is that this shows a problem with women. If 70-80& of customers returned a product, no one would say "The customers are the problem." We would recognize that the product is probably defective. If 70-80% of employees quit a job, no one would say the employees are the problem. We would recognize that the job probably sucks.

Then she mentions that the women have kids, that would tell us that prior to that moment, this woman was in a relationship that she valued enough to have a kid in and if she's not married, shouldn't half the inquiry be "Where is the child's father and why isn't he around?" Someone's fucking these women, getting them pregnant, putting them in a position where they have to now think about themselves and the child and then other men are wondering why the women are more mercenary after that fact? Silly.

Lastly, women aren't wives anymore. That may be but are men being husbands anymore in the traditional sense? Are they looking for women to marry, paying for the entire date, promising to take care of her financially and overseeing all of those traditional male roles in the household? Or are they in the marketplace, looking for sexual partners, and putting marriage on the back burner while still expecting the women to contribute financially? That traditional expectation has to apply to both groups.

Alimony and child support are what wives get because their husbands are the bread winners and woman is expected to sacrifice her career to support his and if the man wants a traditional wife, he has to be okay with what comes with that...otherwise, start dating women who make more money than they do.

A woman saying that men are logical people while applying poorly reasoned arguments is its own kind of humor.

I think this is probably one of my bigger criticisms of the incel crowd and the "women are the problem" crowd is precisely that men want traditional wives without having to showcase their willingness to be traditional husbands.
 
I've seen this clip before and it's as absurd to me now as it was the first time.

I just thought it fit right in with some of the crap in this thread . . .

I think this is probably one of my bigger criticisms of the incel crowd and the "women are the problem" crowd is precisely that men want traditional wives without having to showcase their willingness to be traditional husbands.

Pretty much. Some guys are truly so selfish that they don't want to fill the role of being a husband in any way. Just as many women only want to be spoiled and given whatever they want.

I say this as someone who'll celebrate 30 years of marriage next month . . . if you can't be a contributing member of the marriage and all you expect is the other person to give, give, give . . . you'll be very disappointed. And no longer married in most cases.
 
As long as men keep dating below there standards, incels will keep existing. I got called an incel for bringing up pair bonding and why so many relationships fail nowadays. Lmao
 
I've seen this clip before and it's as absurd to me now as it was the first time.

First, women leave 70-80% of the time would indicate that the marriage isn't working for women. Yet the takeaway people want us to draw is that this shows a problem with women. If 70-80& of customers returned a product, no one would say "The customers are the problem." We would recognize that the product is probably defective. If 70-80% of employees quit a job, no one would say the employees are the problem. We would recognize that the job probably sucks.

Then she mentions that the women have kids, that would tell us that prior to that moment, this woman was in a relationship that she valued enough to have a kid in and if she's not married, shouldn't half the inquiry be "Where is the child's father and why isn't he around?" Someone's fucking these women, getting them pregnant, putting them in a position where they have to now think about themselves and the child and then other men are wondering why the women are more mercenary after that fact? Silly.

Lastly, women aren't wives anymore. That may be but are men being husbands anymore in the traditional sense? Are they looking for women to marry, paying for the entire date, promising to take care of her financially and overseeing all of those traditional male roles in the household? Or are they in the marketplace, looking for sexual partners, and putting marriage on the back burner while still expecting the women to contribute financially? That traditional expectation has to apply to both groups.

Alimony and child support are what wives get because their husbands are the bread winners and woman is expected to sacrifice her career to support his and if the man wants a traditional wife, he has to be okay with what comes with that...otherwise, start dating women who make more money than they do.

A woman saying that men are logical people while applying poorly reasoned arguments is its own kind of humor.

I think this is probably one of my bigger criticisms of the incel crowd and the "women are the problem" crowd is precisely that men want traditional wives without having to showcase their willingness to be traditional husbands.

Generally speaking, divorce is incentivized for women, and deincentivized for men. So I don't think it's a huge mystery why women initiate the majority of divorces. And yes, often it's because of a shitty husband. But there are also many cases of shitty wives. Likely, the context most often lies somewhere in middle, with both parties partly at fault. Only for men, they generally don't get paid to get divorced. For women, it's a second lease on life, on their ex's dime.
 
Exactly what you mentioned. Gay weddings, gay pastors, trans pastors, pope supporting 'same sex unions', religion being relegated to one's home and pushed further and further away from people's public life, christians constantly allowing secular people to constantly undermine the sacredness and any respect for their religion and allowing others to stretch and blur the lines between what is and isnt christianity (i.e. the ludicrous notion of 'christian atheist'). Christians lost confidence in Christianity. They allowed the atheists to grind their religion into mere symbolism at best. Hedonism is the dominant religion in countries where Christianity flourished.

But the huge focus on gay and transgender people is a cultural element that is unique to American politics. American politics have heavily infiltrated Christianity. How many people go to church that regularly lie or cheat on their spouse, get jealous of others, use god's name in vain, etc. I think Christians need to focus on being a better person and living righteously. Jesus even said “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Even having wealth is looked down upon. What is with this fixation on LGBT people exclusively? Is that sin greater than any other? Those churches that you label as atheist. All they're doing is simply saying that you're welcome if you are LGBT. Most churches have greedy people who don't share their wealth, or liars yet they don't get labeled as such so what's the difference? Only homophobia?
 
But the huge focus on gay and transgender people is a cultural element that is unique to American politics. American politics have heavily infiltrated Christianity. How many people go to church that regularly lie or cheat on their spouse, get jealous of others, use god's name in vain, etc. I think Christians need to focus on being a better person and living righteously. Jesus even said “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Even having wealth is looked down upon. What is with this fixation on LGBT people exclusively? Is that sin greater than any other? Those churches that you label as atheist. All they're doing is simply saying that you're welcome if you are LGBT. Most churches have greedy people who don't share their wealth, or liars yet they don't get labeled as such so what's the difference? Only homophobia?

People's flaws are not justified by their religion. They don't normally do those things and then justify them religiously. A Christian can do all the things you mentioned but if someone were to point out that this is wrong in Christianity, they'd agree and say yes according to the religion it is wrong. When the opposite starts to happen, when they start to say this is okay in Christianity and they aren't challenged, then the religion is lost. The LGBT thing it is a sign of undermining the religion itself (this is not new as in my opinion Christianity has been ceding ground to atheism and hedonism for more than a century). Its not just a sin of a person but rather its shown to be an acceptable thing within the religion itself (LGBT Pastors, Same Sex Marriages in Churches). Yes some sins are greater than others. If you're having homosexual sex, that is a greater sin than for example lying to your spouse. All that remains is the "theme" of Christianity in these countries. Its not that "LGBT people" are welcome but that LGBT is increasingly seen as welcome which is a difference. Every facet of LGBT is anathema to Christianity. What is this fixation on LGBT? That is a question that can be aimed at the atheists and secularists far more than the religious these days. At the end of the day this is an ideological encroachment on religion and traditionalism. Muslims have a greater conviction on these things than Christians in the West who in reality have ceded everything to liberal secularism but like to LARP that some semblance of Christianity remains so they can feel less guilty spiritually but deep down know it's just empty bluster. When these former Christian countries cant even confidently tell you what a woman is, its no surprise that Christianity as a religious force is increasingly seen as a joke.
 
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Generally speaking, divorce is incentivized for women, and deincentivized for men. So I don't think it's a huge mystery why women initiate the majority of divorces. And yes, often it's because of a shitty husband. But there are also many cases of shitty wives. Likely, the context most often lies somewhere in middle, with both parties partly at fault. Only for men, they generally don't get paid to get divorced. For women, it's a second lease on life, on their ex's dime.

It's pretty amazing how when people get married they are totally lying about staying with someone in sickness and health, better or worse etc. That part of the vows usually makes me want to throw up a little in my mouth. Generally just losing a job is enough to put strain on marriage to the point of divorce.

I'm not good at multi-quoting posts, but Pan's thing on marriage not working for women and analogies to buying a financial product or quitting a job isn't what I consider the salient thing IMO. A relationship is give and take, you are both a theoretical buyer and a seller at the same time. Both parties need to make an effort. It's not uncommon for someone making more of an effort and being the "superior" product in a sense is the one who is deemed the one not being up to par. It's like two people are trying to make the same thing for each other (let's say in ipad in Sherdog lore), but one can make a pile of shit and give it to someone, and the other come up with somehting that resembles an ipad but isn't quite as good, and you have the person who makes the shitty one complain and say the deals off.

Bit close to home, my brother in law is a high powered dude, and when he married my sister, it was pretty obvious what attracted her to him. Yet, after they got married, she was constantly complaining about the strain on their relationship of him not cancelling appointments or delaying stuff and putting work "first" ahead of her etc. But it's like, if that wasn't his character trait, I doubt you would even be with him in the first place.

It felt like there's a bit of lot of wisdom in the nugget that "when a woman marries a man, she hopes he changes, but he stays the same. When a man marries a woman, he hopes she stays the same, but she changes." It's my fave marriage nugget, even ahead of "when a man walks down the aisle to get married he is smiling because he thinks he's going to get blowjobs for the rest of his life; when a woman walks down the aisle she's smiling because she thinks she's never going to have to give another blowjob for the rest of her life."

It's as common as the sun rising in morning that relationships get strained, and having friends in your ear saying how you should leave, or unrealistic standards, your own sense of duty or commitment, and/or the fallout in terms of impact on children etc are a big factor of divorces happening. It's very very possible that people who contribute less to a relationship instigate divorce not because they offer something superior to their partner, but require a much greater checklist of things required to be happy in a relationship that can go anywhere on a scale of being reasonable to almost impossible for anyone to fulfill. I mean, take a look at Tom Brady - not saying it's possible to know all the ins and outs of their situation, but it's reported that he didn't want to get divorced and she's upset about him still playing football. The guy is 45 and looking to work one or two more years IN HIS LIFE. That is grounds for divorce?
 
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People's flaws are not justified by their religion. They don't normally do those things and then justify them religiously. A Christian can do all the things you mentioned but if someone were to point out that this is wrong in Christianity, they'd agree and say yes according to the religion it is wrong. When the opposite starts to happen, when they start to say this is okay in Christianity and they aren't challenged, then the religion is lost. The LGBT thing it is a sign of undermining the religion itself (this is not new as in my opinion Christianity has been ceding ground to atheism and hedonism for more than a century). Its not just a sin of a person but rather its shown to be an acceptable thing within the religion itself (LGBT Pastors, Same Sex Marriages in Churches). Yes some sins are greater than others. If you're having homosexual sex, that is a greater sin than for example lying to your spouse. All that remains is the "theme" of Christianity in these countries. Its not that "LGBT people" are welcome but that LGBT is increasingly seen as welcome which is a difference. Every facet of LGBT is anathema to Christianity. What is this fixation on LGBT? That is a question that can be aimed at the atheists and secularists far more than the religious these days. At the end of the day this is an ideological encroachment on religion and traditionalism. Muslims have a greater conviction on these things than Christians in the West who in reality have ceded everything to liberal secularism but like to LARP that some semblance of Christianity remains so they can feel less guilty spiritually but deep down know it's just empty bluster. When these former Christian countries cant even confidently tell you what a woman is, its no surprise that Christianity as a religious force is increasingly seen as a joke.
I’m not a Bible scholar. I stopped believing when I was a kid and not able to question stuff. Where does it say in the Bible that homosexuality is a worse sin than others? Also @Islam Imamate what are your views on LGBT? From a lot of your posts in other threads I got the sense you were more on the left. Just curious because I noticed you liked his post
 
Generally speaking, divorce is incentivized for women, and deincentivized for men. So I don't think it's a huge mystery why women initiate the majority of divorces. And yes, often it's because of a shitty husband. But there are also many cases of shitty wives. Likely, the context most often lies somewhere in middle, with both parties partly at fault. Only for men, they generally don't get paid to get divorced. For women, it's a second lease on life, on their ex's dime.
A common misinterpretation of how divorce laws work. If guys don't want to pay alimony, don't marry women who make less money than them. If they don't want to pay child support, they should make themselves the primary caregiver during the marriage and thus have an argument for primary custody after the divorce.

But most guys don't want to marry a woman who makes more money than them. And a lot of guys prefer to leave the nuts and bolts of child-rearing to their wives. Well, if that's the pre-divorce arrangement then they're going to pay child support and maybe alimony post-divorce.

It's like someone who refuses to eat properly for years then complaining about how diabetes is ruining their lives. Everything has a trade off.
 
I’m not a Bible scholar. I stopped believing when I was a kid and not able to question stuff. Where does it say in the Bible that homosexuality is a worse sin than others? Also @Islam Imamate what are your views on LGBT? From a lot of your posts in other threads I got the sense you were more on the left. Just curious because I noticed you liked his post

Not a Bible scholar either but The below shows how serious it is. Sex should only be between married men and women.

In the old testament: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable…If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13).

New Testanent: Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27)

Of course there is also the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. All relationships that involve sexuality are between men and women. None of the Prophets engaged in Homosexual behavior. No offense but simply being unaware of something so common about traditional Christianity is another sign that it has long ago fallen by the way side.
 
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No, it's not illogical or unrealistic. It's simply not how men do it.

Frankly, given what the red pill crowd says about women having to be more selective than men, the women's approach is consistent with that. If she has to careful with who she sleeps with then it makes sense to only be interested in the best available option and focus on achieving that, instead of accepting lesser quality men just because they're available. In that frame of reference, best available as the only option is logical and pretty reasonable.

What use is this information to a male in the dating market? Well for starters, if a guy wants to know why he's failing at garnering female attention, it's probably a good idea to understand how women are allocating their attention. Instead of applying the guy's perspective to dating, they should grasp what women are actually looking for and try to win that actual game.

If someone was asking me for advice, I would tell them that datnig apps are a bad time investment unless they're pretty high on the attractive scale. For most guys, they might be better served seeking women in real life where the relative options are much smaller. This would increase the chances that they fall towards the top of available men that a random woman encounters.

For example -- go to the library. The average guy isn't a bad catch at the library, there might maybe 1 male model level guy passing through the entire building over the course of a week. But on Tinder? He's in the same pool with hundreds of guys at that attractiveness level and so will almost never be the best looking guy that a girl sees while swiping through. But at the library on a Tuesday? He should take those odds.

That's how I would advise a guy to use that information.
Online dating doesn't consume that much time, it's extremely effective in that sense. I'm completely average and I got thousands of Tinder matches because I've been shown to hundreds of thousand of women, probably. I don't need to swipe either, I just bought the Gold version where I can see the women who already swiped on me so I just choose, I don't spend more than 5 minutes daily looking at it.
But yes, on an individual level you have a bigger chance approaching a girl in real life be it at a bar or somewhere else, if just because so many guys are too shy to approach and hence you aren't competing with so many. If the male model is too shy to approach he is out of the game.
 
I’m not a Bible scholar. I stopped believing when I was a kid and not able to question stuff. Where does it say in the Bible that homosexuality is a worse sin than others? Also @Islam Imamate what are your views on LGBT? From a lot of your posts in other threads I got the sense you were more on the left. Just curious because I noticed you liked his post
Well I liked that post because I agreed with his general assessment that Christianity as a serious moral force has largely faded in the West.

I am more on the left, I am a registered Democrat and generally vote D and for the kind of state amendments and local ordinances that a Democrat would vote for. I am Muslim though and as I've gotten older I've come to understand the conservative reservations in regards to LGBT values. But again doesn't really affect my voting habits, I'm kind of like the opposite of a libertarian who on the surface says he has nothing against gay marriage and LGBT issues but who only votes for GOP politicians that are anti-LGBT.
 
I really want Tinder to explain what is stopping these people from getting matches. A lot of them aren't ugly and they could just play down their poor qualities. I find the idea that dating apps can subjugate an entire section of the society into being dateless, probably at the touch of a button, as terrifying
It's because they feel they deserve 10s not because they can't get a match or get laid
 
It's because they feel they deserve 10s not because they can't get a match or get laid
guys tend to swipe on anyone on those things.

Actually, I don't really use Tinder anymore but my entire timeline is flooded with 10s and not by my own choice, to such an extent I question the validity of the profiles.

I'm not talking about matches btw just the profiles I am presented with
 
I’ve noticed a lot of lefties with an unhealthy obsession with “incels”. Not sure why.
Seriously, they have a lot of weird obsessions. It’s another buzzword they like to use along with Nazi and fascist… Which is ironic, because they’re the ones trying to control speech and disarm the population.

Social media and smart phones have fried a lot of people’s brains.
 
A common misinterpretation of how divorce laws work. If guys don't want to pay alimony, don't marry women who make less money than them. If they don't want to pay child support, they should make themselves the primary caregiver during the marriage and thus have an argument for primary custody after the divorce.

But most guys don't want to marry a woman who makes more money than them. And a lot of guys prefer to leave the nuts and bolts of child-rearing to their wives. Well, if that's the pre-divorce arrangement then they're going to pay child support and maybe alimony post-divorce.

It's like someone who refuses to eat properly for years then complaining about how diabetes is ruining their lives. Everything has a trade off.

I never claimed that divorce laws specifically target men. But rather men tend to get screwed in divorces(social norms being what they, men tend to be higher earners), and thus divorce(again, generally speaking) is deincentivized for men and incentivized for women.

As for your claim that men should marry up, I agree that can work on an individual level. But it's delusional to think that men marrying into higher SES, for the sake of not getting crushed in a divorce scenario, could be applied to the masses. Women, on a general basis, will never start marrying down. At least not to the degree that men do.
 
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