In response to all those who say 'Watch kickboxing!'...

[Thepaintbucket]

I've been seeing this line since day one. I think it was actually a lot worse back in the day with all the mma purists.

 

[omawho402]

Boring wrestlers= Belal and Merab

Exciting wrestlers= Cain Velasquez and Khabib

I have no problem with wrestlers and grapplers, but I have a big problem with ones that are boring and stall.

 

[WoozyFailGuy]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me.

People don't look back and say "Man, Fitch's opponents should have learned to defend takedowns better" they think "Man, Fitch was a fucking boring fighter" because it's objectively true.
Taking the latest fight for example: It's Sean's fault he couldn't stop the takedown and lost the fight.
Also, Merab is boring. He doesn't finish fights and as a champion currently has the worst finish rate in the UFC.
Both statements are true.
I don't get the confusion.
There are exciting and boring grapplers just like there are exciting and boring strikers.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Literally everyone bitches about every strickland fight precisely because of this lol

It's up to Merab's opponents to stop his gameplan.
Also, Merab's gameplan sucks from a fans point of view.
Both of these statements can be true.
Before anyone says it, I already watch kickboxing as well.

nobody bitches about Strickland. never did i see people call for rule changes because of Strickland's style. just like grappling you don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

i like strikers more than grapplers but i don't think Merab is that boring because of how aggro he is and how loose and open he is on the striking side, he's there to be taken if the strikers weren't so preoccupied with being afraid of being cardio grappled to death. that's how it works. Merab is good at making the takedown threat so overwhelming that it handcuffs the striker. the striker's job is to make the threat of his striking so overwhelming it has the grappler second guess his shots and either shoot from too far or hesitate and freeze them to get picked off. that's the psychological battle at play when the match is striker vs grappler. O'Malley just has a bad style for that because he's a counter striker. if he was more comfortable leading the dance and forcing panic shots and miscalculated shots he'd have way more success vs guys like Merab. that's what happened in the 5th, he walked forward and he had the most success he had the entire fight. had he done that from rd 2 on it would've been more competitive than it ended up being.

 

[Zanmato]

It is not exciting to watch, but if you had ever tried to get someone off from on top of you and just failed over and over and over again you would not say that that experience was not fighting

 

[World eater]

People, the UFC is already addressing the issue. They are giving strikers easier paths to the top and are outright not signing great grapplers with few finishes (being in other orgs automatically makes these people bums in the eyes of the average fan). Is it a good way to improve the situation? No, it is shady and horrible for the sport, but they do what they have to in order to improve the “entertainment” part of mma and earn more money.

 

[SuperAlly]

When people criticize boring fkn wrestlers.

This is such a lame defence when I hear this.

It's simplifying the argument to create a straw man for yourself to knock down.

Not everybody who finds wrestlers or certain kinds of wrestlers boring want to watch kickboxing. Or, they'd watch fkn kickboxing. There's ground and grappling elements which still involve violence - aka ground n pound, elbows, and submissions; BJJ is still interesting, combative, violent;

Wheras, holding people and stalling (not saying that's what Merab did btw. no comment on him/separate/in general... ) is NOT that. It's not combat, it's not violence, it's not causing damage, it's not trying to cause damage, or win. It's a lame fkn way of using a trick, essentially, something you know how to do, to just kill the action and 'win' rounds. It's fkn lame.

Plenty of us still like ALL the elements of fighting. Just not bullshit types of wrestling. Take somebody down, sure, but for a purpose - to hurt them or finish things. Don't just hold them or act like a snake, and pass time and 'win' that way. Prime example of what I'm talking about, which is bullshit is what Usman used to do; like, v Masvidal 1 - fkn holding him against the fence and not doing shit, just keeping him there not able to fight back. Oh, my mistake, he did toe stomp!

Are you that arrogant you needed your own thread on this same point that's been done a million times this week?

TLDR

 

[AldoStillGoat]

Are you that arrogant you needed your own thread on this same point that's been done a million times this week?

TLDR

 

[Iroh]

That's not a good comparison though. Artists ideally want to make good art (unless you're someone like Pitbull or Adam Sandler), fighters don't necessarily want to be in entertaining fights, just win. Some do, and they have my undying respect for it, but that isn't the point for them.
They won't feed their family with my respect, they will, however, with win money.

Go ask a fighter if he rather wants to be seen as a fun or exciting fighter or a boring one.

Mixed martial artists are also artists.

 

[Iroh]

Sean Strickland basically does the same shit as Merab does but with striking. why is nobody bitching about how boring this motherfucker is. why don't we change the rules so you can only throw a jab if you throw at least 4 high kicks? or maybe you can only throw a jab if you spit on at least one person who bitches about grappling in a sport that allows it?

Bruh, I've seen people call Strickland boring plenty of times.

 

[Mask Of Winters]

If TS watched more kickboxing I guarantee you he wouldn't be as miserable and feel the need to complain.

 

[PrideNverDies]

I will watch kickboxing it's way more entertaining thanks for the recommendation

 

[maximus__]

When people criticize boring fkn wrestlers.

This is such a lame defence when I hear this.

It's simplifying the argument to create a straw man for yourself to knock down.

Not everybody who finds wrestlers or certain kinds of wrestlers boring want to watch kickboxing. Or, they'd watch fkn kickboxing. There's ground and grappling elements which still involve violence - aka ground n pound, elbows, and submissions; BJJ is still interesting, combative, violent;

Wheras, holding people and stalling (not saying that's what Merab did btw. no comment on him/separate/in general... ) is NOT that. It's not combat, it's not violence, it's not causing damage, it's not trying to cause damage, or win. It's a lame fkn way of using a trick, essentially, something you know how to do, to just kill the action and 'win' rounds. It's fkn lame.

Plenty of us still like ALL the elements of fighting. Just not bullshit types of wrestling. Take somebody down, sure, but for a purpose - to hurt them or finish things. Don't just hold them or act like a snake, and pass time and 'win' that way. Prime example of what I'm talking about, which is bullshit is what Usman used to do; like, v Masvidal 1 - fkn holding him against the fence and not doing shit, just keeping him there not able to fight back. Oh, my mistake, he did toe stomp!S

Schev vs Grasso was shit.
Merab vs O'malley was fine.

Schev barely did anything with her control and Grasso's offence was the only reason the fight got to stay there.
Merab was hurting O'malley and trying to finish him, but O'malley just held on or buried his head under Merab whilst trying to survive.
Add in grounded knees and we get a finish in both fights.

 

[Hotora86]

Allow knees to the head of a downed opponent and watch wrestlers knee brains out in the N-S position instead of LnP.

 

[checktheknuckles]

Sniff sniff

Btw it’s alley not ally, dumbass

 

[sonhow]

Has nothing to do with being exciting.

You can phrase it as saying that fighters are exploiting the rules about there being a time limit (which exist for commercial reasons, ironically enough) and the criteria of "control" to win. That isn't really sportsmanlike. They are leveraging the rules for something that wasn't their intended purpose.

If there were rules that forced people to fight more, that actually WOULD be more sports like, because the point of MMA is to resemble a fight as close as possible.

Wrestling matters in real fighting, but someone like Valentina did not go into the contest thinking she was using wrestling to beat down or submit her opponent. She was using wrestling because she knew the fight was 25 minutes long, and if she stayed on top for the majority of it, she will win because of how the rules are phrased. Valentina had no interest at all at engaging in the spirit of what MMA is supposed to be about.

That has little to do with ground fighting. She is essentially stalling. That is not really adding value to the sport.

But if there were more rounds she would just keep on laying on her, no? In the end fight must end and the rules are what they are.
I do agree that Pride scoring as the whole fight was better btw.

 

[ejazahmednit]

I dont completely disagree with you TS.
As a viewer you are entitled to criticize or give your opinion on a certain fight/fighter.
I have a question for you though, do you consider GSP boring? Was Shields vs Maia boring?
How about Woodley vs Shields

 

[don't ask]

People don't look back and say "Man, Fitch's opponents should have learned to defend takedowns better" they think "Man, Fitch was a fucking boring fighter" because it's objectively true.
Taking the latest fight for example: It's Sean's fault he couldn't stop the takedown and lost the fight.
Also, Merab is boring. He doesn't finish fights and as a champion currently has the worst finish rate in the UFC.
Both statements are true.
I don't get the confusion.
There are exciting and boring grapplers just like there are exciting and boring strikers.

It doesn't make sense to me to blame the wrestler and not the people who can't wrestle. Historical examples of people not making sense aren't going to convince me that it's sensible.

It especially doesn't make sense to me in an org that doesn't reward risk -taking.

 

[Ginja_Ninja]

It doesn't make sense to me to blame the wrestler and not the people who can't wrestle. Historical examples of people not making sense aren't going to convince me that it's sensible.

It makes perfect sense to me. Its no different than the heat that Izzy, Anderson and other have taken in some of their fights. It doesn't matter if its striking or wrestling. Its boring point fighting. We don't blame the wrestler for wresting, we blame him for boring point fighting. If you have an opponent who "can't wrestle" don't hold him down for 20 minutes, advance, improve positions, look to land heavy shots, actively search for submissions and finish him/her.

A win is a win and from and athletic stand point what they are doing is great. From entertainment stand point, it is terrible.
You have to realize this is both a sport and a business. Having the best fighters in the world doesn't help the business if nobody wants to buy the product.

 

[Uber_Noober]

I do watch kickboxing, I can’t remember the last UFC event I watched.