If GSP beats Khabib, he is the undisputed GOAT

[autolycus]

What? Are you sure you are a Hockey fan? You don't seem to know very much about Mario and Wayne. This was BY FAR the most famous moment of Mario's Hockey career and you didn't even know it happened?

It was the greatest line in sports history. Mario was at the absolute peak of his game and Wayne was maybe just slightly past his peak. No one can watch the 87 Canada cup and say Mario was better then Gretzky. Mario was amazing and the clear #2, but Gretzky was clearly the better player of the two

Mario was not at his peak. He was 21. Wayne was not past his peak. He was 26 and in he midst of a 183 point season. He only scored 149 points on the next season but he only played 64 games. It’s still 2.32 points per game. After that there was a drop off because he got traded to the Kings.

 

[autolycus]

What? Are you sure you are a Hockey fan? You don't seem to know very much about Mario and Wayne. This was BY FAR the most famous moment of Mario's Hockey career and you didn't even know it happened?

It was the greatest line in sports history. Mario was at the absolute peak of his game and Wayne was maybe just slightly past his peak. No one can watch the 87 Canada cup and say Mario was better then Gretzky. Mario was amazing and the clear #2, but Gretzky was clearly the better player of the two

Also, Mario scored 11 goals in 9 games. That’s insane in international play. Gretzky is the greatest playmaker of all time and had 18 assists but he only had 3 goals. Mario’s 11 goals and 18 points as a 21 year old is more impressive than what Gretzky did.

 

[McDego]

You’re making yourself look stupid. Everyone but you knows what he meant.

Really?

So you also agree that winning and strength of schedule/quality of opposition mean the same thing?

Please elaborate.

 

[autolycus]

Really?

So you also agree that winning and strength of schedule/quality of opposition mean the same thing?

Please elaborate.

When he said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class" he was clearly talking about being able to win against the best in their weight class, not simply amassing wins against cans and journeyman like Travis Fulton. It is really obvious to EVERYONE. You are just being a complete fucking tool by trying to twist his words into something he didn't say. You think you're being clever. You're not. No one is amused by what you are doing. STFU and move on.

 

[McDego]

When he said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class" he was clearly talking about being able to win against the best in their weight class, not simply amassing wins against cans and journeyman like Travis Fulton. It is really obvious to EVERYONE. You are just being a complete fucking tool by trying to twist his words into something he didn't say. You think you're being clever. You're not. No one is amused by what you are doing. STFU and move on.

You didn't answer the question.

Are you mad?

 

[autolycus]

You didn't answer the question.

Are you mad?

Why would I be mad?

It doesn't matter what I think P4P means in the context of this particular conversation. It matters that you are intentionally failing to understand what Loiosh wrote.

 

[McDego]

Why would I be mad?

It doesn't matter what I think P4P means in the context of this particular conversation. It matters that you are intentionally failing to understand what Loiosh wrote.

No, I understand it perfectly. He has one criteria. "Sole" means "being the only one". Therefore it is the only factor. No implications, no assumptions, no additions.

You never answered the question. I didn't ask what you think P4P means. Do you believe winning and strength of schedule/quality of opposition to be one and the same? To not be different criteria?

You disagree with my assessment of the word "sole" ?

 

[mirko>anyone]

Its pretty much impossible to be the undisputed GOAT in any sport. People argue Mario and Orr over Gretzky in Hockey. People argue Kareem and Lebron over Jordan in Basketball. People argue Ali over SRR in Boxing. And people will argue Fedor/Jones over GSP in MMA even if he beats Khabib

Kareem the best basketball player ever? A legend, but an odd choice. Never heard anyone say that.

 

[thobra]

Beating Khabib secures GSP as no 3 goat. Beating Whittaker moves him up to no 2.

 

[mirko>anyone]

Kobe also had the greatest coach of all time and prime Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Gary Payton, Ron Artest (one of the best defensive players ever), Karl Malone. Sure some were older, but if you are going to count an old 10 PPG Allen for Lebron, you have to count a 20PPG old Karl Malone. And Wade was only good in 2011 with Lebron (and Lebron choked lol, but Kobe choked just as bad in 2004) after that he was always injured and looked more like he was hurting the Heat then helping them. I don't think there is any argument for Kobe over Lebron. The plus's for Kobe (scoring, killer instinct, clutch) are all things Lebron is much better then. Lebron shoots WAY better in clutch situations and hit more big shots in the playoffs. He also plays MUCH better in big playoff games and elimination games then Kobe did. He is not a score first player but he still has a higher PPG then Kobe at a much better FG%.I am not even a big Lebron fan, but Kobe is not close to him

Jordan crushed them all agreed though. Not undisputed because lots of people argue Kareem, Russell or Lebron over him. I find it stupid, but people do argue against Jordan

This is, of course, just my opinion much like you’re providing. Here’s my insight though.

Phil being the greatest coach ever is debatable, but you won’t get a counter argument from me. “prime” Dwight Howard is nothing to write home about though. Possibly the most overrated player of the 21st century at one point. Gary Payton, Steve Nash, and Karl Malone were all well beyond their primes when they joined the lakers. Absolutely no doubt Lebron has played around more talent. Does that make him better or worse, dunno. I’m not nearly as convinced that lebron is better than Kobe as you are.

Kareem and Russell aren’t even the the best centers of all time. Wilt Chamberlain categorically annihilated Russell in every way except winning. Take a look at the Celtics roster from that period - legendary.

If you quantify greatness, Wilt is the greatest basketball player to ever live. Obviously context matters though. We’ve come a long way. Take legendary status away, take records away, and place everyone in an absolute vacuum. Gun to your head, you’re picking prime Hakeem or Shaq as your center.

To me, it’s similar to, say, Matt Hughes vs Tryon Woodley. Hughes is “greater” and far more legendary, but from an absolute perspective, if they faced prime for prime, Woodley would certainly knock him out.

It’s all subjective, but to me, Michael Jordan is the best player ever.

It’s very hard to place centers in the Goat conversation given the large role variations over different eras.

1. Jordan


2. Wilt

3 (not in any order)

Bird
Magic
Oscar
Kareem
Kobe
Lebron
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
Russell

That’s more than 10, but they all have a claim to being on that list, and probably a few more I’m overlooking. It’s always fun to discuss anyway. I’m always happy to discuss it so long as nobody gets mad and says their opinion is better. We all evaluate talent differently and no doubt each one of the guys above have achieved things great enough to be labeled an all time great.

 

[McDego]

Kareem and Russell aren’t even the the best centers of all time. Wilt Chamberlain categorically annihilated Russell in every way except winning. Take a look at the Celtics roster from that period - legendary.

If you quantify greatness, Wilt is the greatest basketball player to ever live. Obviously context matters though. We’ve come a long way. Take legendary status away, take records away, and place everyone in an absolute vacuum. Gun to your head, you’re picking prime Hakeem or Shaq as your center.

To me, it’s similar to, say, Matt Hughes vs Tryon Woodley. Hughes is “greater” and far more legendary, but from an absolute perspective, if they faced prime for prime, Woodley would certainly knock him out.

It’s all subjective, but to me, Michael Jordan is the best player ever.

I don't think there's any question to whether or not Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player.

Shit, he's the greatest player in all of sports.

He's a fucking measurement of greatness.

They don't say "He's the Travis Lutter of basketball." They say: "He's the Michael Jordan of BJJ."

Nahmean?

 

[mirko>anyone]

I don't think there's any question to whether or not Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player.

Shit, he's the greatest player in all of sports.

He's a fucking measurement of greatness.

They don't say "He's the Travis Lutter of basketball." They say: "He's the Michael Jordan of BJJ."

Nahmean?

I don’t disagree. He’s the Goat Goat.

 

[autolycus]

No, I understand it perfectly. He has one criteria. "Sole" means "being the only one". Therefore it is the only factor. No implications, no assumptions, no additions.

You never answered the question. I didn't ask what you think P4P means. Do you believe winning and strength of schedule/quality of opposition to be one and the same? To not be different criteria?

You disagree with my assessment of the word "sole" ?

Loiosh clarified what he meant. At best you have an argument that he didn't express himself well (though in my view clear what he meant). So what? Why are you still on this?

 

[autolycus]

I don't think there's any question to whether or not Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player.

Shit, he's the greatest player in all of sports.

He's a fucking measurement of greatness.

They don't say "He's the Travis Lutter of basketball." They say: "He's the Michael Jordan of BJJ."

Nahmean?

They say that because there is so much propaganda surrounding Jordan. He was the star chosen by the NBA to push its popularity to the next level. He was the greatest of his era and there's certainly an argument that he was greatest player of all time but it's not as clear cut as most people think. Its even less obvious that he is the greatest player in all of sports. Wayne Gretzky was statistically more dominant in hockey than Jordan was in basketball.

 

[Claude]

Nope, still Fedor.

Khabib is a LW.

 

[ermac88]

GSP will always be a great.

However, I dont think beating a fighter 2 weight classes under him, changes anything.

 

[McDego]

Loiosh clarified what he meant. At best you have an argument that he didn't express himself well (though in my view clear what he meant). So what? Why are you still on this?

That's not true. Loiosh claimed what he said was "perfect", and that the second criteria was assumed. Impossible for a "sole criteria".

I'm "still on it" because you've yet to answer the question. We both know why you're not answering the question, but the fact remains.

They say that because there is so much propaganda surrounding Jordan. He was the star chosen by the NBA to push its popularity to the next level. He was the greatest of his era and there's certainly an argument that he was greatest player of all time but it's not as clear cut as most people think. Its even less obvious that he is the greatest player in all of sports. Wayne Gretzky was statistically more dominant in hockey than Jordan was in basketball.

I do agree that Gretzky was statistically more dominant, he holds almost every hockey record ever, but nobody says that "Michael Jordan is the Wayne Gretzky of basketball." They say "Wayne Gretzky is the Michael Jordan of hockey." "Tom Brady is the Michael Jordan of football." so on and so on.

The man transcends sports and is literally a measure of greatness.

A weird but interesting note: 23 - this number meant shit until Jordan immortalized it. That's how great he was. He changed the fucking significance of an obscure and irrelevant number. That's just crazy, man. His silhouette is the most recognized symbol worldwide. He was at one time the most recognizable human being on the planet. No contest.

 

[autolycus]

That's not true. Loiosh claimed what he said was "perfect", and that the second criteria was assumed. Impossible for a "sole criteria".

I'm "still on it" because you've yet to answer the question. We both know why you're not answering the question, but the fact remains.

There's no point in me answering the question because Loiosh has clarified what he meant. So at best you have a semantics argument that Loiosh's words don't mean what he thinks they mean. Why does that matter? It only matters that his criteria are...

For the record, I think "ability to win in a weight class" can be broadly interpreted. Do you really think that Travis Fulton has the same ability to win at HW as Stipe? the fact that The Ironman has so many wins is irrelevant. No one in their right mind doubts that Stipe could easily beat every single fighter that Fulton has beaten. On the other hand, Fulton could not beat Overeem, Junior, Ngannou, Cormier, Nelson, etc. He would get obliterated. So who has a better ability to win at HW?

This isn't hard, and the fact that you can't let this go is weird. Do you have some history with Loiosh that I don't know about?

I do agree that Gretzky was statistically more dominant, he holds almost every hockey record ever, but nobody says that "Michael Jordan is the Wayne Gretzky of basketball." They say "Wayne Gretzky is the Michael Jordan of hockey." "Tom Brady is the Michael Jordan of football." so on and so on.

The man transcends sports and is literally a measure of greatness.

A weird but interesting note: 23 - this number meant shit until Jordan immortalized it. That's how great he was. He changed the fucking significance of an obscure and irrelevant number. That's just crazy, man. His silhouette is the most recognized symbol worldwide. He was at one time the most recognizable human being on the planet. No contest.

But you haven't proved that this has to do solely with his skill. Jordan was the subject of an enormous amount of hype, marketing and outright propaganda. And Basketball is a much more popular sport worldwide than Hockey. I don't disagree with your assertion that Jordan has become synonymous with greatness and has transcended basketball. I just don't agree that it means that he is actually the greatest sports player ever once you look past the hype.

 

[House Adams]

What? Are you sure you are a Hockey fan? You don't seem to know very much about Mario and Wayne. This was BY FAR the most famous moment of Mario's Hockey career and you didn't even know it happened?

It was the greatest line in sports history. Mario was at the absolute peak of his game and Wayne was maybe just slightly past his peak. No one can watch the 87 Canada cup and say Mario was better then Gretzky. Mario was amazing and the clear #2, but Gretzky was clearly the better player of the two

Dude... Relax. You could obviously tell I was speaking of NHL time only... You could have simply said - “Oh, I’m including Olympic / International teams, not just NHL..”

I didn’t try to insult you when you tried to make it sound as though Lemieux and Gretzky played an entire NHL season together - Giving us 82 + games to watch them play side by side in a number of different situations and scenarios...

Personal opinion... Playing a tournament with each other for 7-8 games or whatever, is hardly enough time to accurately judge two players of this caliber, especially when speaking of a careers worth of accomplishments and the intangibles of the game (how do they play along the boards, how do they play defensively / are they two way players, better on the PK, physical play / toughness / fighting, neutral zone play / back-checking, etc...) Also, were they hurt / nursing an injury, personal issues, nerves, etc.

Not to mention International / Olympic play... occurs once every 4 years - I don’t think you can compare careers based on a handful of games.

Also... Gretzky was an NHL vet at the time... A seasoned pro, almost 10 years into his career. Lemieux was what, 2-3 years into his NHL career... Just a pup.

Lastly... I believe Lemieux went off in that tournament... Most goals in the tournament.

Now.. That doesn’t prove a thing... and that’s part of my point... You could just as easily say, it was bc of Gretzky that Lemieux had so much success in the tournament... So I don’t believe using this specific tournament as a catalyst is fair.

Just my thoughts man...

 

[Maori]

Kobe n Shaq were more of a one/two punch (with Shaq being better of course). However both guys wanted to be the “main guy” n that’s why they split up n only won 3 titles together.

Magic was Kareem sidekick in the beginning n later on took over as the main guy when Kareem was nearing retirement.

Westbrook (n even harden) weren’t as good as they were on their on. N a lot of that is stat padding. Them too they couldn’t co exist together.

Stockton was good during regular season, but would always choke in the playoffs. He couldn’t create his own shot n would usually get outplayed in playoffs vs the other team pg.

In pippen you had a guy who would easily be the best player on 2/3 teams in the league, but he didn’t have that big of a ego to leave once he got popular. He accepted his role as sidekick n complemented Jordan well as 2nd scorer n lockdown defender.



Well he does have same amount of titles, more mvps n leads the league in scoring n 3rd in blocks...

True, he doesn’t have as many fmvps, but that’s just one playoff serie

In 1980 he was clearly the best laker that year. Magic was given the mvp cause of his closing game performance.

Now you wanna discredit him for aba/nba split, but then the same could be said for Jordan n fast expending league from late 80s to mid 90s going from 23 teams to 29 which spread the talent round.

Also draft classes from 86 to 91 were relatively weak with hardly any solid players coming out of those so Jordan didn’t really have any up n coming competition.



Gretzky literally rewrote nhl record books

He leads the league in career goals, assists n points in both regular season n playoffs (records that will most likely never be broken)

He’s 4th all time in +/- (stat that’s dominated by d)

He’s 1st in regular season mvp with 9 (2nd is Howe with 6)

1st in scoring titles with 10 (2nd is a tie between Howe n Lemieux with 6)

Tie for 2nd in playoffs mvp with 2 (1st is Roy with 3)

In his prime you might argue that Jordan was more dominant, however looking at their overall impact in their sport (what goat is suppose to be) Gretzky has the edge

Whos gretzky?

 

[House Adams]

Yeah... I was speaking in terms of the NHL...

8-9 games in an International tournament is not exactly like playing on the same NHL team for an entire season...