If GSP beats Khabib, he is the undisputed GOAT

It's not getting weird, you're arguing semantics.

It's assumed because it's so basic. No argument regarding how good a fighter is ignores quality of opposition, in fact quality of opposition is probably the single most common criticism of fighters in this discussion.

In any case, I assume it as a factor, and I was describing my own considerations, so if you want to get your rocks off arguing about how I described my own process, you go right ahead.

You literally said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class". This is not arguing semantics, this is quoting your exact words.

If that is your sole criteria, you must choose Travis Fulton as GOAT. There is simply no other fighter with more wins in his weight class.

"Quality of opposition" is not the single most common criticism of fighters in this discussion, but it is definitely an important one. It's just the single most common one used by GSP fans because he lacked finishes, and they haven't done enough homework to realize that his quality of opposition isn't as good as they think it is in comparison to Silva's or Jones'.
 
He doesn't need Khabib to be considered to ultimate GOAT. After Serra ko'ed him he made all the guys that were tearing through WW look like amateurs.
I must say I never enjoyed watching his fight as he was comfortable with just outpointing them, never going for the finish but only Hendricks gave him some sort of challenge and I think we can agree that:
- when GSP was fighting Hendricks his mind wasn't here anymore,
- this one is obviously a suspision - and kinda shitty one - but I always thought that Hendricks was roided out of his mind when this fight happened. I mean his demise is legendary.

So yeah, Khabib beat punching bag Iaquinta for the title, he obliterated Poirier, no doubt, but GSP was top of the food chain FOR YEARS, he defeated like at least two generations of upcoming MMA fighters. Anderson was always my favorite fighter and he's the one to show when you want one to get into MMA but GSP had probably highest fight IQ we've ever seen (so far) and it's hard to deny him the title of the GOAT (although fuck this title tbh).
 
You literally said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class". This is not arguing semantics, this is quoting your exact words.

If that is your sole criteria, you must choose Travis Fulton as GOAT. There is simply no other fighter with more wins in his weight class.

"Quality of opposition" is not the single most common criticism of fighters in this discussion, but it is definitely an important one. It's just the single most common one used by GSP fans because he lacked finishes, and they haven't done enough homework to realize that his quality of opposition isn't as good as they think it is in comparison to Silva's or Jones'.

I was as clear as I needed to be, and you're being disingenuous. In fact, it was more than clear, it was perfect. Travis Fulton wouldn't have had all those wins if he'd been fighting in the UFC where the opposition is tougher. His ability to win in his weight class isn't best in the world.

Quality of opposition is a pretty common criticism. It's why "everybody that guy fought is a can after they fought him" is a Sherdog meme. I wouldn't put my hand on a bible and say it's the most common, but it feels that way.
 
You literally said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class". This is not arguing semantics, this is quoting your exact words.

If that is your sole criteria, you must choose Travis Fulton as GOAT. There is simply no other fighter with more wins in his weight class.

"Quality of opposition" is not the single most common criticism of fighters in this discussion, but it is definitely an important one. It's just the single most common one used by GSP fans because he lacked finishes, and they haven't done enough homework to realize that his quality of opposition isn't as good as they think it is in comparison to Silva's or Jones'.
If by “Silva” you mean Anderson, GSP’s level of competition is significantly higher.
 
You don’t get to sit out for the second half of your carreer and cherry pick fights you think you have a chance of winning then claim goat. It doesn’t work that way. There’s way more fighters who have been in there with way scarier commotion knock out artist wrestlers olympians and specialist from every art form. He’s not GOAT in my opinion or in any non biased criteria. Prove you can fight for a prolong period of time without being knocked off like you have in the past. The UFC isn’t nearly as scary as it was in 2012 for any division so it shouldn’t be hard. Beating a single can crusher doesn’t do him any favors at all.
 
You literally said "my sole criteria is ability to win in a weight class". This is not arguing semantics, this is quoting your exact words.

If that is your sole criteria, you must choose Travis Fulton as GOAT. There is simply no other fighter with more wins in his weight class.

"Quality of opposition" is not the single most common criticism of fighters in this discussion, but it is definitely an important one. It's just the single most common one used by GSP fans because he lacked finishes, and they haven't done enough homework to realize that his quality of opposition isn't as good as they think it is in comparison to Silva's or Jones'.
Exactly, but they’re overhyped all the time and only on sherdog. All his competition where either one dimensional wrestlers or just plain overrated with the exception of BJ Pen Condit and Johnny Hendricks who he lost to. I don’t see a world beater in Hughes especially today considering all the strong wrestlers at welterweight now.
 
If by “Silva” you mean Anderson, GSP’s level of competition is significantly higher.

Here's some real numbers for Silva's opponents. I took 11 fights in his division and left out the two rematches vs Franklin and Sonnen, using their stats from the first time they fought. The times each person has been finished is in parenthesis next to their overall record when they faced Silva:

Leben: 15-1 (0)
Franklin: 22-1 (1)
Lutter: 8-3 (2)
Marquardt: 25-7 (2)
Henderson: 22-7 (2)
Cote: 13-5 (2)
Leites: 14-1 (0)
Maia: 12-1 (1)
Sonnen: 25-11 (10)****
Belfort: 19-8 (3)
Okami: 26-5 (1)

Total: 201-50 (24)

You can see that Chael Sonnen accounts for almost 50% of the overall number of finishes from all 11 opponents, and over 20% of their losses. I'll do GSP's opponents next and post it shortly, using 11 fights at 170, leaving out rematches if applicaple, and using the data from their first match only.

GSP's opponents at the time they fought. I went from the first Koscheck fight to Hendricks, also 11 fights. These are fights in the WW division only, and the only rematch during this time was Koscheck, so I skipped their second fight and used the data from the first fight only. The Hughes and Penn fights are from the fights during this time period, not their first fights:

Koscheck: 9-1 (1)
Hughes: 42-5 (5)
Serra: 10-4 (1)
Fitch: 19-2 (2)
Penn: 13-4 (1)
Alves: 17-5 (4)
Hardy: 23-6 (3)
Shields: 26-4 (1)
Condit: 28-5 (3)
Diaz: 26-8 (2)
Hendricks: 15-1 (0)

Totals: 228-45 (23)


Things to consider:

-Sonnen's losses and times finished sways the numbers absurdly, accounting for 22% of the total losses and 41.66% of the total times finished. Hughes' wins sway the win column absurdly, accounting for 18.42% of the total wins.
-Silva's opponents had a slightly lower win percentage overall despite the giant boost from Hughes, and were finished (minus Sonnen) almost 50% less.
-2 out of 11 of Silva's opponents never won a championship prior to fighting him: Leites and Okami
-4 out of 11 of GSP's opponents never won a championship prior to fighting him: Koscheck, Fitch, Alves, and Hendricks. This number would be 5 if GSP hadn't previously lost his championship to Matt Serra.

Silva fought 4 guys with only 1 previous career loss
GSP fought 2 guys with only 1 previous career loss

Silva finished 9 out of 11 of his opponents. 81.81%
GSP finished 2 out of 11 of his opponents. 18.18%

Another fun fact about GSP's "strength of schedule" or "quality of opposition" is that he had 9 fights against the same 4 people, 2 of those 4 people spent the majority of their career at LW. If his division was so absurdly stacked and the competition was so deep, why so many rematches?

26-2 is a 92.85% win rate with a 54% finish rate- going 7-2 against the same 4 guys - 26.92% of his wins were against 4 people.
33-4 is 89.19% win rate with a 78.79% finish rate - going 4-0 against the same 2 guys - 11.76% of his wins against 2 people.
 
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I was as clear as I needed to be, and you're being disingenuous. In fact, it was more than clear, it was perfect. Travis Fulton wouldn't have had all those wins if he'd been fighting in the UFC where the opposition is tougher. His ability to win in his weight class isn't best in the world.

Quality of opposition is a pretty common criticism. It's why "everybody that guy fought is a can after they fought him" is a Sherdog meme. I wouldn't put my hand on a bible and say it's the most common, but it feels that way.

You were abundantly clear in stating that the sole criteria was the ability to win fights in their division, I agree. You later tried to change its meaning.

I agree with quality of opposition being pretty common, it absolutely should be, and is very significant. However, quality of opposition isn't assumed or implied, it's a separate criteria.

Nahmean?
 
Undisputed GOAT is such a stupid subject. GSP is a great fighter regardless of fighting Khabib or not. WW GOAT for sure.
 
Its pretty much impossible to be the undisputed GOAT in any sport. People argue Mario and Orr over Gretzky in Hockey. People argue Kareem and Lebron over Jordan in Basketball. People argue Ali over SRR in Boxing. And people will argue Fedor/Jones over GSP in MMA even if he beats Khabib

Not many people argue Ali over SRR . Ali himself said that SRR was better than him. Ali is the man on the street's choice, and the man on the street normally doesn't know who SRR is. I've rarely heard a person actually familiar with both of them argue for Ali.
 
GSP will get this fight and win! In this most recent interview he tells UFC you know where to find me.

Go to twitter and demand Dana make this fight!
·
2h

I’m doing a live Twitter Q&A tomorrow before the #UFC244 press conference Use #AskDana and I’ll answer your question tomorrow
 
You were abundantly clear in stating that the sole criteria was the ability to win fights in their division, I agree. You later tried to change its meaning.

I agree with quality of opposition being pretty common, it absolutely should be, and is very significant. However, quality of opposition isn't assumed or implied, it's a separate criteria.

Nahmean?

I said weight class. I never changed anything. I stand behind the very first thing I said, even if you don't understand it.
 
No because he would have beaten a ring rusted near 40 year old who was drained from an excessive weight cut
 
I mean...it might be the thing that pushes him out in front over the other GOAT candidates for me if he did it. Then again Jones doesnt seem anywhere near finished yet.
 
Here already is. The only people who dispute it are idiots.
 
I said weight class. I never changed anything. I stand behind the very first thing I said, even if you don't understand it.

You're trying to change what "sole criteria" means. Stop.

I understand perfectly what that means. Apparently you don't.

You believe Travis Fulton to be the GOAT. It's cool. You're entitled to your opinion.
 
GSP will get this fight and win! In this most recent interview he tells UFC you know where to find me.

Go to twitter and demand Dana make this fight!
·
2h

I’m doing a live Twitter Q&A tomorrow before the #UFC244 press conference Use #AskDana and I’ll answer your question tomorrow


Very odd how close they are to each other in size, no?

Haven't people been saying (for like a decade now) that Silva is just waaaay bigger than GSP? Weird.
 
Its pretty much impossible to be the undisputed GOAT in any sport. People argue Mario and Orr over Gretzky in Hockey. People argue Kareem and Lebron over Jordan in Basketball. People argue Ali over SRR in Boxing. And people will argue Fedor/Jones over GSP in MMA even if he beats Khabib

Well... Mario Lemieux is a better overall player then Gretzky.

No disrespect to 99...
 
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