Idris Elba rumored to be next Bond

[MikeMcMann]

The seat of your argument is that race-washing characters is okay.

That's fine by me, but of course this is going to favor the majority population, especially when they're the ones who are race-washing ethnic characters they created (i.e. Stan Lee and Steve Ditko are both white), or by virtue of the fact telling the story is their own venture in a mission to promulgate it (i.e. using one of the most popular actresses in the world at the time, Angelina Jolie, to help spread the story of Daniel Pearl). You realize Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie produced that movie with their Plan B Entertainment studio, right? Indeed, while you point to that movie as justification for "cultural appropriation", you fail to realize that if it wasn't for white people that lady and her husband's story wouldn't have been told at all. It's impossible to "appropriate" what doesn't exist, so your attempt to hold this up as some example of past abuse isn't symmetrical at all.

I don't think it was abuse.

I think Jolie in the role and her company and fame being used were all OK. That has been my point.

Per "The Ancient One", Stan Lee created that character, while Ian Fleming is dead. Stan Lee still makes cameos in every MCU movie, and has specifically said that Spider-Man should remain a white, heterosexual man. He created Falcon himself to add more diversity to that comic, and to acknowledge African-American contributions. Nevertheless, they didn't whitewash that character for white people.
‘Doctor Strange’ Writer Says The Ancient One Is White Because Of China

Isn't that ironic? This safe space wasn't built for white westerners. They rarely are. After all, the publisher of Ghost in the Shell dispensed permission for Scarlett to play that role, and while apparently this is noteworthy to you, are you hawking the Japanese market, and how it is treating the races of characters it draws from western literature or culture? I have a feeling Japanese actors are playing historical/fictional white characters, routinely. That's your other foot, not internal race divisions within our own culture.

Again I don't deny your point. It just entirely misses my point.

Theater demands this suspension of disbelief. It's the essence of theater.

Of course, historically, this was terrible for minorities, from business and cultural marginalization points of view, which is why minorities and liberals undertook to caterwaul it. Yes, we absolutely have seen a disproportionate push back to this practice, but contrary to your earlier claims in this thread, that push back has been overwhelmingly anti-white and anti-majority.

Not on this forum, I call complete BS as all the caterwauling is done when a character is ethnic washed and far less the other way around.

There are entire documentaries about Charlie Chan and this topic. Hundreds. Now that liberals realize liberals control Hollywood so completely and unabashedly, and will race-wash to favor minorities, suddenly we're seeing arguments like yours manifest. Apparently there never a problem with this all along! Fancy that.

Indeed, you can't have it both ways. I'm with you. Cultural appropriation is necessary, and good. The thing is...James Bond already belongs to this culture. He isn't Dracula synthesized and forged from a millenia of Eastern European folklore and myths for a British audience. He's already British. He has his own history, his own definitions, and his own production engine (Broccoli family productions). He doesn't require more appropriation. His personal biography is concrete.

Idris IS british. Also long running media is ALWAYS subject to change. ALWAYS if it runs long enough and PARTICULARLY if the originator dies and the source material ends up in successive generations hands looking to find a new audience to milk it.

Modernization? Why?

because... money.

A white Bond still resembles the predominant British face. Othello has still been black every single time I have seen him played. As I've said in the past, when I see a white Shaft, in a production funded principally or wholly by African-Americans, I'll believe I've discovered sincere reciprocity. Until then, I will not be persuaded by arguments that it makes sense to "modernize" a character. Nobody felt the need to "modernize" the races of Uhura or Sulu. Fury gets modernized, but nobody talks about "modernizing" Storm. I don't see anyone jumping down Ice Cube's throat to "modernize" the XXX blockbuster franchise. Rich Wilkes, who happens to be white, did what whiners for modernity themselves seem unable to do.

Write a new character-- instantly modern.

M'eh. You name characters that have been modernized via ethnic washing and then name characters that have NOT been white washed as the counter. I have little desire to play that bullshit game when you could have countered your own point by naming far more characters who HAVE been white washed.

Sorry but your argument rings hollow when you play that game. I can name all sorts of white characters who have not been changed to prove a point if that is the bar.


----------

Anyway none of that is my point to begin with. My point is ALL characters are subject to change if the owners of the medium want to allow and Hollywood thinks it will sell. This is not some UNIQUE SJW thing that is only impacting whites as their characters get ethnic-washed despite their cries of unique victimhood.

 

[Madmick]

I don't think it was abuse.

I think Jolie in the role and her company and fame being used were all OK. That has been my point.

Again I don't deny your point. It just entirely misses my point.

Not on this forum, I call complete BS as all the caterwauling is done when a character is ethnic washed and far less the other way around.

No, I didn't miss the point because I understand this forum exists in the 21st century, and is chiefly frequented by westerners (specifically North Americans). The history of whinging is squarely rooted in liberal/minority subculture.

You don't get to disown this history as a matter of political convenience. Bullshit called.

Idris IS british. Also long running media is ALWAYS subject to change. ALWAYS if it runs long enough and PARTICULARLY if the originator dies and the source material ends up in successive generations hands looking to find a new audience to milk it.

because... money.

M'eh. You name characters that have been modernized via ethnic washing and then name characters that have NOT been white washed as the counter. I have little desire to play that bullshit game when you could have countered your own point by naming far more characters who HAVE been white washed.

Sorry but your argument rings hollow when you play that game. I can name all sorts of white characters who have not been changed to prove a point if that is the bar.


----------

Anyway none of that is my point to begin with. My point is ALL characters are subject to change if the owners of the medium want to allow and Hollywood thinks it will sell. This is not some UNIQUE SJW thing that is only impacting whites as their characters get ethnic-washed despite their cries of unique victimhood.

Idris is British, but he isn't white, and James Bond is.

No, your argument alone is hollow, or you would be decrying the lack of more white characters in cultures where whites are not the majority, or in control of the institutions of power (ex. Bollywood). If you wish to argue that Bond would be more lucrative if Bond were black then you should present some data to substantiate that forecast because the history of global box office tickets is against you.

The "game" is this. Find me a franchise with a character(s) created by a black author, in a venture of risk undertaken by principally black producers and investors, which grew into a massively successful and lucrative franchise, and then changed the race of characters into that franchise to be white or some other race. I'll then provide my examples the other way.

You won't like how these add up.

 

[MikeMcMann]

No, I didn't miss the point because I understand this forum exists in the 21st century, and is chiefly frequented by westerners (specifically North Americans). The history of whinging is squarely rooted in liberal/minority subculture.

Stand behind your point then. Put something up in value in a bet and I guarantee you i find far more instances of incessant whining and whinging anytime a character is ethnic washed than when they are white washed despite the latter happening far more.

You don't get to disown this history as a matter of political convenience. Bullshit called.

Calling Bullshit on something I never did or suggested is pretty meaningless so take your strawman shit elsewhere.

Idris is British, but he isn't white, and James Bond is.

Again, not the point. Characters all throughout media and Hollywood history have been changed both ethincicall and gender wise. So keep caterwauling BUT BOND... BUT BOND IS WHITE, but understand it has no meaning to the point which is that no characters are safe from 'washing'. Not even HISTORICAL NON FICTION characters.

Funny that Bond being white is inviolate to you but you find reasons to accept the whitewashing of other REAL LIFE characters in your prior post as long as you like the reasoning.

No, your argument alone is hollow, or you would be decrying the lack of more white characters in cultures where whites are not the majority,

Absolute garbvage and trolling by you.

I've said upthread I completely understand Bollywood catering to an almost all Indian audience. I absolutely accept Hollywood catering to an almost all white audience prior and even putting actors in black face. Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

My issue is, AND MY SOLE ISSUE, is this caterwauling NOW and ONLY NOW when a character is ethic washed.

So NO I don't need to decry the lack of white characters in Bollywood or anywhere else as I am ok with it. Just as I am ok with them TODAY whitewashing characters. I have no issue with Jolie playing the ethnic lady nor Affleck playing the Hispanic. Due whatever sells.

JUST STOP THE WHINING when it goes the other way.

or in control of the institutions of power (ex. Bollywood).

I made that point already upthread so you don't get to create bullshit strawman arguments against me.

f you wish to argue that Bond would be more lucrative if Bond were black then you should present some data to substantiate that forecast because the history of global box office tickets is against you.

I don't give a shit if Bond is black you troll so stop lying and putting words in my mouth. I don't give a shit if Idris gets the role.

I will however point out each and every time when people caterwaul as if washing is wrong and only done in one direction (ethnic washing) when that is a lie. It is NORMAL. Done all the time. And will always be done.

The "game" is this. Find me a franchise with a character(s) created by a black author, in a venture of risk undertaken by principally black producers and investors, which grew into a massively successful and lucrative franchise, and then changed the race of characters into that franchise to be white or some other race. I'll then provide my examples the other way.

You won't like how these add up.

that is not my argument so again take that strawman shit out of here or actually find someone arguing that.

 

[Madmick]

Stand behind your point then. Put something up in value in a bet and I guarantee you i find far more instances of incessant whining and whinging anytime a character is ethnic washed than when they are white washed despite the latter happening far more.

No, you wouldn't. Concession accepted. You don't actually have an example of a black-created, black-funded blockbuster franchise built around a black character being race-washed to a white person.

Calling Bullshit on something I never did or suggested is pretty meaningless so take your strawman shit elsewhere.

Again, not the point. Characters all throughout media and Hollywood history have been changed both ethincicall and gender wise. So keep caterwauling BUT BOND... BUT BOND IS WHITE, but understand it has no meaning to the point which is that no characters are safe from 'washing'. Not even HISTORICAL NON FICTION characters.

Funny that Bond being white is inviolate to you but you find reasons to accept the whitewashing of other REAL LIFE characters in your prior post as long as you like the reasoning.

Absolute garbvage and trolling by you.

I've said upthread I completely understand Bollywood catering to an almost all Indian audience. I absolutely accept Hollywood catering to an almost all white audience prior and even putting actors in black face. Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

My issue is, AND MY SOLE ISSUE, is this caterwauling NOW and ONLY NOW when a character is ethic washed.

So NO I don't need to decry the lack of white characters in Bollywood or anywhere else as I am ok with it. Just as I am ok with them TODAY whitewashing characters. I have no issue with Jolie playing the ethnic lady nor Affleck playing the Hispanic. Due whatever sells.

JUST STOP THE WHINING when it goes the other way.

I made that point already upthread so you don't get to create bullshit strawman arguments against me.

I don't give a shit if Bond is black you troll so stop lying and putting words in my mouth. I don't give a shit if Idris gets the role.

I will however point out each and every time when people caterwaul as if washing is wrong and only done in one direction (ethnic washing) when that is a lie. It is NORMAL. Done all the time. And will always be done.

that is not my argument so again take that strawman shit out of here or actually find someone arguing that.

Except that caterwauling about characters being ethnically "washed" didn't begin NOW and ONLY NOW. It began a long time ago, and it was liberals and minorities who started it. The very rationales which you say you accept for ethnically washing characters, to make them more palatable to a wider majority audience who might receive it, does not justify ethnically washing Bond. Black Brits aren't the majority. You have desperately clung to an inverse parallel where no such parallel exists.

Bond isn't an Asian male character created by a white man who was then race-washed to a white woman by a studio created by a white man, still controlled predominantly by white ownership, operating in a country/market that is predominantly white.

Even your Ghost in the Shell analogy is stupid because Scarlett was still playing the original Japanese character whose body was destroyed (i.e. Scarlett is an Android who actually is Asian).

There is no rational basis to race-wash Bond. There is ample rational basis to demand the creation of new characters.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I will repeat again so no one strawmans my arguments:

- "washing' has gone on in all forms or media and particularly in Hollywood for over a hundred years AND THAT IS OK
- the 'washing' has been predominantly white washing not just of fictional characters but also historical AND THAT IS OK
- Bollywood similar ethnic washes characters AND THAT IS OK
- however in recent history the 'washing' has extended to both 'ethnic washing' and 'gender washing' of roles as well that were historically white and male AND THAT IS OK
- Predominantly the practice still tends to white washing over all else AND THAT IS OK

So if all that is OK what is my issue:

- in almost every thread where ethnic washing or gender washing takes place we get this huge cacophony of caterwauling where certain poster scream how WRONG it is and that it is a function of SJW's and minorities and women crying and complaining to make it happen. THAT IS WRONG.

FACT - when it comes to older properties and the changing face of the audience Hollywood will look to experiment with old characters and franchises to see if they can renew some excitement in them in the hopes they can get another two or three movie run out of them. So neither Ocean's 8 nor the last Ghostbusters were remade with women due to an SJW agenda. They were done to take the risk to see if that would breath new life into an old franchise where they assumed a simple reboot with similar faces would not work. Whether they are right or wrong in Hollywood in terms of success does not matter. They will try, particularly with older valuable franchises.

And now that the audiences face is changing and more ethnic and more women and Chinese dollars matter that much more you will see more pandering by Hollywood to squeeze characters in AND THAT IS OK.

Hollywood and media gonna Hollywood and media and that means they will exploit their properties as they see fit when they think they can make a buck and that is all it comes down to. And sorry white male characters will not be the ONLY ones protected from it no matter how much tears are shed.

 

[MikeMcMann]

No, you wouldn't. Concession accepted. You don't actually have an example of a black-created, black-funded blockbuster franchise built around a black character being race-washed to a white person.

Except that caterwauling about characters being ethnically "washed" didn't begin NOW and ONLY NOW. It began a long time ago, and it was liberals and minorities who started it. The very rationales which you say you accept for ethnically washing characters, to make them more palatable to a wider majority audience who might receive it, does not justify ethnically washing Bond. Black Brits aren't the majority. You have desperately clung to an inverse parallel where no such parallel exists.

Bond isn't an Asian male character created by a white man who was then race-washed to a white woman by a studio created by a white man, still controlled predominantly by white ownership, operating in a country/market that is predominantly white.

Even your Ghost in the Shell analogy is stupid because Scarlett was still playing the original Japanese character whose body was destroyed (i.e. Scarlett is an Android who actually is Asian).

There is no rational basis to race-wash Bond. There is ample rational basis to demand the creation of new characters.

Troll on brother, troll on.

I'm not bothering with someone trolling or too stupid to follow an argument so continue stuffing your strawmen and claiming victory when you can't troll someone into defending arguments that have zero to do with their position.

You are not addressing any of my points and I.won't waste time addressing yours

 

[Madmick]

I will repeat again so no one strawmans my arguments:

- "washing' has gone on in all forms or media and particularly in Hollywood for over a hundred years AND THAT IS OK
- the 'washing' has been predominantly white washing not just of fictional characters but also historical AND THAT IS OK
- Bollywood similar ethnic washes characters AND THAT IS OK
- however in recent history the 'washing' has extended to both 'ethnic washing' and 'gender washing' of roles as well that were historically white and male AND THAT IS OK
- Predominantly the practice still tends to white washing over all else AND THAT IS OK

So if all that is OK what is my issue:

- in almost every thread where ethnic washing or gender washing takes place we get this huge cacophony of caterwauling where certain poster scream how WRONG it is and that it is a function of SJW's and minorities and women crying and complaining to make it happen. THAT IS WRONG.

FACT - when it comes to older properties and the changing face of the audience Hollywood will look to experiment with old characters and franchises to see if they can renew some excitement in them in the hopes they can get another two or three movie run out of them. So neither Ocean's 8 nor the last Ghostbusters were remade with women due to an SJW agenda. They were done to take the risk to see if that would breath new life into an old franchise where they assumed a simple reboot with similar faces would not work. Whether they are right or wrong in Hollywood in terms of success does not matter. They will try, particularly with older valuable franchises.

And now that the audiences face is changing and more ethnic and more women and Chinese dollars matter that much more you will see more pandering by Hollywood to squeeze characters in AND THAT IS OK.

Hollywood and media gonna Hollywood and media and that means they will exploit their properties as they see fit when they think they can make a buck and that is all it comes down to. And sorry white male characters will not be the ONLY ones protected from it no matter how much tears are shed.

Sherdog isn't the world. Do you understand that? Your entire argument is a strawman: letter and law. No, the whitewashing of characters has never been accepted by minorities as "okay", and it's an intolerable revisionist lie to say so now. The Ancient One's character itself was a "whitewash" that drew endless jeers from liberals. Margaret Cho penned an open email to Tilda Swinton about it!
https://www.google.com/search?num=2...i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i10k1.0.eQN80wp7-QI

I'm calling you on your bullshit. I'm also calling you on your inability to discern honest parallels. You can't produce an actual example of a character like Bond being race-washed. The circumstances (i.e. creators, markets, franchise profits, etc) are not the same.

 

[I Am Legion]

But you're only assuming they're doing this to check a box. Could be that they want to change things to keep the story interesting, like when they cast Craig.

If it wasn’t so rampant lately, I might agree. But when you read the interviews the producers admit to making polical statements with the casting. They did with Ghostbusters, Johnny Storm, and Annie just off the top of my head. The Last Jedi was one big SJW joke.
Like I said, it’s really just Bond that irks me....watching and reading Bond stuff for 40 years. The closest in appearance was Brosnan followed by Dalton. That’s what Fleming envisioned based on his descriptions.

 

[Midnighter]

If it wasn’t so rampant lately, I might agree. But when you read the interviews the producers admit to making polical statements with the casting. They did with Ghostbusters, Johnny Storm, and Annie just off the top of my head. The Last Jedi was one big SJW joke.
Like I said, it’s really just Bond that irks me....watching and reading Bond stuff for 40 years. The closest in appearance was Brosnan followed by Dalton. That’s what Fleming envisioned based on his descriptions.

These were all reboots. They could have just as easily been taking a lazy route to make people interested in the movies than trying to push an agenda.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Sherdog isn't the world. Do you understand that? Your entire argument is a strawman: letter and law. No, the whitewashing of characters has never been accepted by minorities as "okay", and it's an intolerable revisionist lie to say so now. The Ancient One's character itself was a "whitewash" that drew endless jeers from liberals. Margaret Cho penned an open email to Tilda Swinton about it!
https://www.google.com/search?num=2...i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i10k1.0.eQN80wp7-QI

I'm calling you on your bullshit. I'm also calling you on your inability to discern honest parallels. You can't produce an actual example of a character like Bond being race-washed. The circumstances (i.e. creators, markets, franchise profits, etc) are not the same.

Strawman away.

The points to contest is whether or not this caterwauling on SHERDOG is dominated when the 'washing' goes a certain way only and if the changes to ethnic or female characters are some SJW plot. That is what is being argued here.

So you are not calling my on any of my bullshiit as you cannot and WILL not quote me saying or suggesting any of the things you are desperately trying to attribute to me. Show me the stink and the amount of caterwauling ON THIS FORUM when Swinton played the Ancient One or take your strawman BS out of here. I recall a few people saying it was stupid but that was it. Same with when Gods of Egypt (or whatever that movie was called). Some called the casting stupid but none of this 'OMG SO UNFAIR. HOLLYWOOD MUST STOP", lol.

 

[MikeMcMann]

These were all reboots. They could have just as easily been taking a lazy route to make people interested in the movies than trying to push an agenda.

Its not even a 'lazy route'.

Sorry but the original Ocean's 11 was remade with Clooney and Pitt which greatly resembled the original and that is ok. The studio is not just going to try to keep remaking it the exact same way and expect they will always draw a new audience. I mean who is next Tom Cruise and CUmberbatch in the Clooney/Pitt roles?

It is Hollywood taking a chance on an old and shop worn franchise HOPING that if it works they will be able to make another 2 movie run with it. Maybe it works and maybe it does not but the reason Hollywood is doing it is in the hopes of inspiring a new audience to watch it so they can make more money off an old property. The same reason they whitewashed so many characters historically. Chasing an audience. Its not a political agenda, its a financial one.

 

[original doom]

Its not even a 'lazy route'.

Sorry but the original Ocean's 11 was remade with Clooney and Pitt which greatly resembled the original and that is ok. The studio is not just going to try to keep remaking it the exact same way and expect they will always draw a new audience. I mean who is next Tom Cruise and CUmberbatch in the Clooney/Pitt roles?

It is Hollywood taking a chance on an old and shop worn franchise HOPING that if it works they will be able to make another 2 movie run with it. Maybe it works and maybe it does not but the reason Hollywood is doing it is in the hopes of inspiring a new audience to watch it so they can make more money off an old property. The same reason they whitewashed so many characters historically. Chasing an audience. Its not a political agenda, its a financial one.

how much money is going to made in africa from a black bond ?

 

[Mike]

how much money is going to made in africa from a black bond ?

Who said anything about Africa. Are you somehow unaware there are black consumers in America and the UK

 

[original doom]

Who said anything about Africa. Are you somehow unaware there are black consumers in America and the UK

there may well be but from a "financial pov" it makes zero sense to change the race of bond.

is james bond even popular among american blacks ?

 

[Hog-train]

Sherdog isn't the world. Do you understand that? Your entire argument is a strawman: letter and law. No, the whitewashing of characters has never been accepted by minorities as "okay", and it's an intolerable revisionist lie to say so now. The Ancient One's character itself was a "whitewash" that drew endless jeers from liberals. Margaret Cho penned an open email to Tilda Swinton about it!
https://www.google.com/search?num=2...i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i10k1.0.eQN80wp7-QI

It's not the fact that whitewashing is "ok." At least for me - I'm a minority and I've just accepted it due to no other choice.

It's just the irony and crying to high heaven when all of a sudden the shoe's on the other foot. Never one complaint before when it didn't adversely affect them.

Basically you guys didn't give a shit when it was happening all the time before, but now all of a sudden it's this big tragedy because it's happening the other way. Now all of a sudden everyone cares about the "integrity" of characters and it's "SJW gone wild."

And it really doesn't matter what any of us think anyway. Money talks. If they decide to cast Idris, it's a purely business decision and calculation.

 

[Mike]

there may well be but from a "financial pov" it makes zero sense to change the race of bond.

is james bond even popular among american blacks ?

No idea. If they're considering it, theyve probably done some market research showing there's an untapped market there.

They've never done a black super spy before, I could see that bringing in a new fanbase, and not just black people.

 

[KnightTemplar]

how much money is going to made in africa from a black bond ?

People in Africa have money?

 

[Excelsior]

My .02 cents:

Fuck race washing of any kind. If a character is already established in any medium whatsoever, when transferred to another medium their race and gender should follow suit. If people want more characters of varied races and genders, then create new ones to read about and watch. I'd watch Idris Elba in a Bond-type role. I think he would do a great job with it. But I won't watch him as Bond.

 

[HARRISON_3]

Make Tom Sizemore the new Bond, IMO

 

[Midnighter]

Michael B Jordan should be the next Bond.

 

[Zer]

They've never done a black super spy before