I hit like a girl

[Sinister]

Sorry man your posts are normally good but I think you're off base with this one. Professional boxers hit alot harder than amateurs. Why? Cos they have learnt how to punch harder. They sit down on their shots, dig their toes in, pop their hips e.t.c. This IS technique increasing power.

People often confuse things when it comes to punching hard, especially noobs. They think that gurning and tensing up, straining for the big shot will give them the power. When in actual fact this just slows down their punch and robs them of power. This I think is what people don't understand and why when they concentrate on just hitting harder it doesn't work. But if you are taught correctly how to punch harder it definitely works. I see it all the time with kids at my gym. Our trainer is an ex pro with some 50 fights under his belt. He HATES amateur boxing! He stresses punching hard in the professional style and it definitely works. I don't know figures but boxers from my gym definitely have a higher KO rate than other clubs I have seen.

Zankou isn't off-base. He trains in Boxing himself. The reason the Ammy's differ from the Pro's in Boxing is because it's completely different systems of winning a fight. In the Amateurs, you don't NEED to knock out an opponent, nor do you really have all that much time to since fights are significantly shorter. Guys who excell in the Amateurs usually do so because they can capitalize on the point-system and win by volume. You outpoint a guy, you beat him. The need to be able to hurt guys in the Pro's increases, but if you follow Amatuer and Pro Boxing, the same guys who hit soft in the Ammy's usually hit relatively soft in the Pro's as well (again, guys like Ray Leonard and Meldrick Taylor). Better technique will lead to more stiff and accurate punching, but that's not the same thing as increasing punching power or compensating for being feather-fisted.

 

[salboski]

HIt the heavy bag.

 

[aries]

Zankou isn't off-base. He trains in Boxing himself. The reason the Ammy's differ from the Pro's in Boxing is because it's completely different systems of winning a fight. In the Amateurs, you don't NEED to knock out an opponent, nor do you really have all that much time to since fights are significantly shorter. Guys who excell in the Amateurs usually do so because they can capitalize on the point-system and win by volume. You outpoint a guy, you beat him. The need to be able to hurt guys in the Pro's increases, but if you follow Amatuer and Pro Boxing, the same guys who hit soft in the Ammy's usually hit relatively soft in the Pro's as well (again, guys like Ray Leonard and Meldrick Taylor). Better technique will lead to more stiff and accurate punching, but that's not the same thing as increasing punching power or compensating for being feather-fisted.

You've changed your tune haven't you?!? I stand by what I said. Better technique equals more power.
Yes I know full well why Amateurs concentrate on speed and point scoring. Power punching isn't the only thing we get taught. Pro traits like bobbing and weaving and infighting which are very useful and definitely here in the UK are not things you will see most amateurs doing. It just so happens that our trainer like us to punch hard as well. Whether its useful or not at the amateur level is debatable. I was just using it as an example of how proper technique can increase power. Any way that's a digression and this debate is being side tracked.

I still think Zankou is wrong in saying that better technique doesn't increase power directly but only increases it through improved accuracy and timing. This is true as well but a punch bag doesn't require much accuracy or timing to hit it. So when scientists measure punch power and they find that improved technique gives improved power its not down to better timing and unlikely down to accuracy.

Zankou gave the example of vertical jumping to show that punch power is mostly genetic. Improving your vertical jump is NOT the same thing as improving punching power. Why? Because there is very little technique to vertical jumping but there is a lot of technique to punching correctly.

 

[Sinister]

You've changed your tune haven't you?!? I stand by what I said. Better technique equals more power.
Yes I know full well why Amateurs concentrate on speed and point scoring. Power punching isn't the only thing we get taught. Pro traits like bobbing and weaving and infighting which are very useful and definitely here in the UK are not things you will see most amateurs doing. It just so happens that our trainer like us to punch hard as well. Whether its useful or not at the amateur level is debatable. I was just using it as an example of how proper technique can increase power. Any way that's a digression and this debate is being side tracked.

I still think Zankou is wrong in saying that better technique doesn't increase power directly but only increases it through improved accuracy and timing. This is true as well but a punch bag doesn't require much accuracy or timing to hit it. So when scientists measure punch power and they find that improved technique gives improved power its not down to better timing and unlikely down to accuracy.

Zankou gave the example of vertical jumping to show that punch power is mostly genetic. Improving your vertical jump is NOT the same thing as improving punching power. Why? Because there is very little technique to vertical jumping but there is a lot of technique to punching correctly.

I never changed my tune. If you look at the thread I simply made the distinction between his argument versus the argument that most of the other posters are making. What he's talking about is being heavy-handed, one-punch knockout power. No amount of training will get you that if you aren't born with it. That's just the way it is.

And there's a difference between punching more stiff and more accurate as opposed to developing true punching power.. Stiffnes and accuracy will channel more of your natural force to a single point of impact, thus, increasing the power that gets distributed and making your punches indirectly harder. Indirect is the word used because you have to develope two other things to see a difference in power. However, how many lbs. of pressure you generate per punch is only going to increase but so much, when you get compared to guys who are naturally bone-crushing type punchers, they'll leave you behind no matter how much you train it. That's all. And that's true.

 

[Takhti]

Zankou isn't off-base. He trains in Boxing himself. The reason the Ammy's differ from the Pro's in Boxing is because it's completely different systems of winning a fight. In the Amateurs, you don't NEED to knock out an opponent, nor do you really have all that much time to since fights are significantly shorter. Guys who excell in the Amateurs usually do so because they can capitalize on the point-system and win by volume. You outpoint a guy, you beat him. The need to be able to hurt guys in the Pro's increases, but if you follow Amatuer and Pro Boxing, the same guys who hit soft in the Ammy's usually hit relatively soft in the Pro's as well (again, guys like Ray Leonard and Meldrick Taylor). Better technique will lead to more stiff and accurate punching, but that's not the same thing as increasing punching power or compensating for being feather-fisted.

On other hand Tommy Hearns was not exactly known for his devastating power as an amature but developed freakish power as a pro

 

[Sinister]

Tommy always had good power. Again, as an Amateur most places stress winning on points as opposed to KO'ing people. Tommy had decent pop, and also fought at much lighter weights as an Amateur. In the Ammy's he fought at the same weight as Aaron Pryor.

 

[Takhti]

Fighting at a lower should mean you have more power. Going up in weight usually means you lose power. DLH as an example. But i agree with your point about amature vs pro.

 

[Sinister]

Nah. Sometimes dropping weight can compromise how hard you hit. That's why for me personally, 154 is a test-weight to see if my height and strength at that weight will maintain. If not I'd need to add some more bodyweight and fight slightly heavier so that my natural power is more accentuated by better muscularity. Sometimes weight-draining (which I'm sure Tommy did during the Ammy's to fight that light, Pryor looked like a midget and he looked like a 6' stick) can weaken a puncher's natural pop.

And going up doesn't mean you lose power. Going up means you're hitting bigger guys. There's a difference. All the lighter fighters who move up hit like they always do. They're just hitting bigger fighters who are used to getting hit by bigger and possibly stronger fighters. That'd be why I would never fight at Heavy or even Light-Heavy. Even smaller heavyweight may have fought guys the size of Valuev or Klitschko in their career and my punches may not affect them at all.

 

[aries]

I'm looking to strengthen my punching power, I guess it's not completely weak, but I don't get to work on striking very much- so it's not what I would like it to be.

This was the original post.

Learn to grapple. In sad truth, you're never gonna hit that hard if you don't already. Either that, or become a technical speedy fighter.

Zankou's reply. I didn't detect any sarcasm here but perhaps you know each other better. I myself was surprised.

I never changed my tune. If you look at the thread I simply made the distinction between his argument versus the argument that most of the other posters are making. What he's talking about is being heavy-handed, one-punch knockout power. No amount of training will get you that if you aren't born with it. That's just the way it is.

And there's a difference between punching more stiff and more accurate as opposed to developing true punching power.. Stiffnes and accuracy will channel more of your natural force to a single point of impact, thus, increasing the power that gets distributed and making your punches indirectly harder. Indirect is the word used because you have to develope two other things to see a difference in power. However, how many lbs. of pressure you generate per punch is only going to increase but so much, when you get compared to guys who are naturally bone-crushing type punchers, they'll leave you behind no matter how much you train it. That's all. And that's true.

Having read back you didn't change your tune. Even so I think Zankou's post is bad advice. Technique improvements will give you the biggest power gains above anything else you can do to increase power. When you speak of Hamed/Cintron/Hearns yes these guys were born with innate power. But nobody here is expecting to ever be able to hit that hard. These guys are the elite of the elite. The elite being boxers who hit harder than any untrained individual save for an almost superhuman minority e.g. Mike Tyson who as a teenage mugger was knocking out grown men.

Look back to my post of research on boxers of different levels and their punch power increasing. You'll see that advanced amateur boxers jab harder than novice boxers can throw a straight rear hand! I am a firm believer that technical improvements can increase power markedly. You can't say its down to accuracy or timing improvements because the target is a static bag. Stiffness??? That is power! What else is it?

In summary the guy is asking can technique improve power. The answer categorically is YES. Can it make you punch like Ernie Shavers? NO

 

[Sinister]

Look back to my post of research on boxers of different levels and their punch power increasing. You'll see that advanced amateur boxers jab harder than novice boxers can throw a straight rear hand! I am a firm believer that technical improvements can increase power markedly. You can't say its down to accuracy or timing improvements because the target is a static bag. Stiffness??? That is power! What else is it?

In summary the guy is asking can technique improve power. The answer categorically is YES. Can it make you punch like Ernie Shavers? NO

No. Stiffness is not the same thing as power. And a heavybag is not static. It moves.

But I already explained the difference between stiffness and heavy-handed punching power, so I'll quote myself:

Stiffnes and accuracy will channel more of your natural force to a single point of impact, thus, increasing the power that gets distributed and making your punches indirectly harder. Indirect is the word used because you have to develope two other things to see a difference in power. However, how many lbs. of pressure you generate per punch is only going to increase but so much, when you get compared to guys who are naturally bone-crushing type punchers, they'll leave you behind no matter how much you train it. That's all. And that's true.

It's a slight difference. I'll use a couple of fighters in here some people have mentioned. Tommy Hearns fought two men. One of them knocked him out in the 14th Round versus the other knocking him out in the 3rd round. It can be argued that the person who knocked him out in the 14th round actually has better punching technique, cleaner, more crisp punches than the man who knocked him out in the third. Then how is it it took this man 14 rounds to knock him out? It's because this man was never a power puncher, and despite that he had nearly flawless punching technique, he was just not as hard a puncher as the other. The other was known for being a murderous puncher for most of his career, a proverbial tank.

Who were these two men? Ray Leonard KO Hearns RD 14. Marvin Hagler KO Hearns RD 3.

Now make no mistake. The MAIN word I'm focusing on here is "indirectly". You can indirectly garner more punching power through many means. But the bottom-line is if you're feather-fisted you're feather-fisted, and there's a multitude of better options. Zankou was simply stating that with a little tongue-in-cheek.

 

[aries]

What's the definition of stiffness then???? What punch impulse would you say meets the criteria of stiffness? I am talking about a measurable quantity here. I've got a lot of respect for your opinions normally KK but I not feeling you at all on this one.

I know what you're saying about punchers being born not made but that's talking about the one hit genetic wonders! That's not relevant to the vast majority of people.

The heavy bag they use to measure punch force/impulse IS most definitely static.

Improving technique, in terms of biomechanics will result in good increases in power, this is IMHO based on scientific research that I have seen and what I have seen in the gym and from what experienced fighters and coaches have relayed to me. Those feather fisted fighters you are describing still probably hit way harder than Mr. Joe Average and most importantly a lot harder than when they started training.

But I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one KK, because I don't think I am going to convince you and I know you're aren't going to convince me.

 

[Sinister]

because I don't think I am going to convince you and I know you're aren't going to convince me.

Well then there's absolutely no need to even answer any of your questions in that post.

 

[Major lee Hong]

i've always been told power comes from your back foot. Use your hips to when you throw a punch power comes from it like swinging a baseball bat

 

[aries]

i've always been told power comes from your back foot. Use your hips to when you throw a punch power comes from it like swinging a baseball bat

Not if its the lead hand uppercut or hook.

 

[Zankou]

Yeah, my posts were obviously a little tongue in cheek. But I do believe that most people can, even off the street, relatively easily throw punches nearly as hard as they're ever going to (unless they put on muscle). As long as they punch with their legs, which most people do when they're throwing haymakers. Now they're slow and wildly inaccurate, and the follow up punches are usually garbage because they're unbalanced, but in terms of raw force, the straight right usually already has it.

What matters way more in practice is having the condition to throw your 80th punch just as hard as the first; being able to fire punches in combination with full force; timing; accuracy; etc. All of those can be improved hugely by technique and fitness. I just think improving power itself is massively overrated by comparison. Most guys have done enough sports that the basic "generating twisting force from the feet to the hand" motion is basically there, and it's not going to go much higher.

 

[CowboyPete]

Punching power is definitely something that is somewhat innate in a person. Its's not just related to muscles and what you do with them. Bone structure is also pretty important, in my opinion. Some people's bones are just structured to deliver force through the fist better and that's not really something you can work to improve, unfortunately. Genetics also definitely plays a role in things. Some people have denser muscles and better natural muscle coordination and kenisthetic prowess. Lotsa guys train like Jordan did but they'll never be as good.

As for what Twistedn'Broken was talking about, spiritual energy (I'll just call it Chi for simplicity's sake), I think there's definitely some merit to that. Chi is basically explained by modern science as bio-electricity, which is stronger in some and weaker in others. Being knocked out from a punch or kick is (in my opinion) all about the disruption of your synaptic relays. Chi can (arguably) be used by various masters of various arts to make people pass out or do other unbelievable things. I'm not saying you could consistently knock someone out with your Kao Ken Attack... I'm just saying that your energy plays a part.

 

[Zankou]

Oh, one more thing to note -- in the "unnatural punches," you can bring your power up a lot more through training technique. I.e., the jab and the hook, which most people will arm punch intuitively, rather than using their legs correctly. But the straight right is just so similar in terms of how it generates power to common sports movements that most guys are already pretty intuitive about how to do it with high force.

Once you get the fundamentals down, then you pretty much know where you stand.

 

[PhilCollins]

like Musashi says, Im not only hitting them with my fist, but my whole body and spirit.

I think that was Goku

 

[xinster]

zomg good thread! bump!

 

[SSF]

Find a good boxing gym and they will get your punching in shape fast.

www.SSFgear.com