I am an ex-Scientologist. (LONG read)

[Dizzle]

I think DSD may actually be a member as well. He is doing a much better job of following the official policy regarding ex-members:

(1) Deny they were ever a full member or had any access to the "real truth"
(2) Attack their personality, ideally accusing them of moral crimes like child pornography so they have no credibility
(3) Sue Sue Sue for libel, bankrupting them if possible

One and two already accomplished. The writ may well be on the way.

-----

It's sad but true, but this is well documented.

Co$ has sues anonymous, I wouldnt be surprised if Co$ somehow was responsible for the porn on 4chan...........

 

[rnaviaux]

I think DSD may actually be a member as well. He is doing a much better job of following the official policy regarding ex-members:

(1) Deny they were ever a full member or had any access to the "real truth"
(2) Attack their personality, ideally accusing them of moral crimes like child pornography so they have no credibility
(3) Sue Sue Sue for libel, bankrupting them if possible

One and two already accomplished. The writ may well be on the way.

-----

It's sad but true, but this is well documented.

I don't know about any "official" policy regarding "ex-members".

If someone doesn't want to belong anymore its fine with me. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I've known several people that decided my church wasn't for them and went off and did other things.

Someone attacking me for being a Scientologist is a different matter. I hold to a pretty firm rule to respect the religious beliefs of others. People that know me IRL will attest that I apply this to all religions. When someone wishes me harm for my religious choices then it really starts to cross the line. And I've heard some pretty nasty things said about me, my family and my friends simply because we were Scientologists. (Usually I find that the speaker didn't understand any of the basic principles or fundamentals of my religion.)

Usually I ignore people like that as who has the time. But if someone wishes to attack me or incite others to attack me then I have a right to defend myself by all legal means.

 

[rnaviaux]

I wouldnt be surprised if Co$ somehow was responsible for the porn on 4chan...........

lol!

 

[Scruff Dog]

Never been called harmless before. That's a new one.

Hard to keep track of what "anon" is protesting. They seem to change themes often.

I wish "they" would at least read a book or two so they knew what they were protesting.

on the contrary, ive found their message to be pretty clear. i cant claim to be "in" anonymous more than any other random person who isnt physically standing in front of you in a mask, but im curious where you think theyve been vague.

also, im assuming based on your posting that youre not "in" scientology like will was. his stories are pretty hardcore. since you keep mentioning books, is it safe for me to assume you arent in it much deeper than studying the literature? from my understanding, that might just mean you cant afford to pay for the auditing and such that gets you knee deep in it. if so, i think you are lucky.

theres a branch of scions that practices the ideals of scientology without all the money involved. anon has said many times they have no issue with them whatsoever.

again though, im guessing you werent doing long stretches of physicial labor for the church at 15, or beaten, or locked in solitary confinement. im also guessing you havent had any of your family "disconnected". obviously, you havent been left for dead by the church either.

many members of the church dont know anything about the church's crimes. they also dont know their religion is based on xenu since they havent reached the appropriate OT level yet.

anyway i dont mean to ramble, but i meant "harmless" as a compliment really, i have no reason to think you are a bad guy

 

[Scruff Dog]

I don't know about any "official" policy regarding "ex-members".

its called "fair game" and you can google it. you can read about that and all sorts of other fun things the church does online, at xenu.net or other places.

also, just about all the surveys, forms, and so on that you have to pay for expensive auditing sessions to see have been leaked and posted online.

 

[doyawanna]

I don't know about any "official" policy regarding "ex-members".

If someone doesn't want to belong anymore its fine with me. Different strokes for different folks and all that. I've known several people that decided my church wasn't for them and went off and did other things.

Someone attacking me for being a Scientologist is a different matter. I hold to a pretty firm rule to respect the religious beliefs of others. People that know me IRL will attest that I apply this to all religions. When someone wishes me harm for my religious choices then it really starts to cross the line. And I've heard some pretty nasty things said about me, my family and my friends simply because we were Scientologists. (Usually I find that the speaker didn't understand any of the basic principles or fundamentals of my religion.)

Usually I ignore people like that as who has the time. But if someone wishes to attack me or incite others to attack me then I have a right to defend myself by all legal means.

The approach is fairly well documented, but I won't harp on that, not to you. Your approach seems completely in line with your demeanor on here, and I can't argue with any of that. I want to say that I really appreciate your approach to this thread and you bring a lot to it with your calm discussion. I have to say that I generally leave beliefs completely alone as they are as personal as a sex life... but as an online forum on the topic, I feel more free to share thoughts and ideas - you don't appear to be taking it personally, but to be clear: my thoughts on the church are not intended to be personal.

By the way, your description of your neighborhood sounds fantastic. My family recently (5 years ago) settled into a nice house in a quiet neighborhood full of kids and it's great. I think it's something you appreciate more with age and with the family phase of life.

 

[rnaviaux]

on the contrary, ive found their message to be pretty clear. i cant claim to be "in" anonymous more than any other random person who isnt physically standing in front of you in a mask, but im curious where you think theyve been vague.

also, im assuming based on your posting that youre not "in" scientology like will was. his stories are pretty hardcore. since you keep mentioning books, is it safe for me to assume you arent in it much deeper than studying the literature? from my understanding, that might just mean you cant afford to pay for the auditing and such that gets you knee deep in it. if so, i think you are lucky.

theres a branch of scions that practices the ideals of scientology without all the money involved. anon has said many times they have no issue with them whatsoever.

again though, im guessing you werent doing long stretches of physicial labor for the church at 15, or beaten, or locked in solitary confinement. im also guessing you havent had any of your family "disconnected". obviously, you havent been left for dead by the church either.

many members of the church dont know anything about the church's crimes. they also dont know their religion is based on xenu since they havent reached the appropriate OT level yet.

anyway i dont mean to ramble, but i meant "harmless" as a compliment really, i have no reason to think you are a bad guy

Well...I've been around for a long time. Since the mid seventies and have done all sorts of things. I'm certainly considered by my peers to be a very dedicated Scientologist. I'm also respected and admired by those same peers for setting a good example of what a Scientologist is and does. (This isn't to say I'm trying to say "mine is bigger than yours" but I have been involved for a while.)

Haven't been beat or locked up yet (Are we including childhood spankings and punishment?)

As far as what my religion is based on is concerned this is covered in our published books and lectures and is available to anyone to peruse.

 

[Soothsayer]

Great post Will.

 

[rnaviaux]

The approach is fairly well documented, but I won't harp on that, not to you. Your approach seems completely in line with your demeanor on here, and I can't argue with any of that. I want to say that I really appreciate your approach to this thread and you bring a lot to it with your calm discussion. I have to say that I generally leave beliefs completely alone as they are as personal as a sex life... but as an online forum on the topic, I feel more free to share thoughts and ideas - you don't appear to be taking it personally, but to be clear: my thoughts on the church are not intended to be personal.

By the way, your description of your neighborhood sounds fantastic. My family recently (5 years ago) settled into a nice house in a quiet neighborhood full of kids and it's great. I think it's something you appreciate more with age and with the family phase of life.

I appreciate that. But to be clear on my side I do take it personally. Let me explain what I mean by this though. I have different groups I belong to like my job, my religion, my jiu-jitsu club, my country (USA), etc. As such I don't always look upon my group as a separate thing from me. Although I am an individual I am also a team member. When one team member is slighted then to some degree the entire team is slighted.

To look at an extreme example of what I mean lets take the USA. Were the only country to have used a nuke on another country. I didn't (as far as I know) contribute to this happening but I'm still ashamed as an American that it did happen. Unless I become an expatriate I will feel this way. This is my country and to a degree I am a representative of this country. The microcosm reflecting the macrocosm, or something like that.

When a person says Scientologists are brainwashed then he is saying me and my friends are brainwashed.

When it is said that the church is a criminal mafia like organization then he/she is calling me a criminal and a member of a mafia-like organization. I don't think "oh they are talking about someone else."

It sure is a truism that people feel much freer to say what they wish online. Being face to face usually engenders better manners.

yep - Nothing better than a great neighborhood. Unlike some I like the atmosphere of everyone knowing everyone else's business.

 

[rnaviaux]

its called "fair game" and you can google it. you can read about that and all sorts of other fun things the church does online, at xenu.net or other places.

also, just about all the surveys, forms, and so on that you have to pay for expensive auditing sessions to see have been leaked and posted online.

Ahh - "fair game." About the most I can reply to that is I became familiar with the term as a result of critics bringing it up.

 

[doyawanna]

I appreciate that. But to be clear on my side I do take it personally. Let me explain what I mean by this though. I have different groups I belong to like my job, my religion, my jiu-jitsu club, my country (USA), etc. As such I don't always look upon my group as a separate thing from me. Although I am an individual I am also a team member. When one team member is slighted then to some degree the entire team is slighted.

To look at an extreme example of what I mean lets take the USA. Were the only country to have used a nuke on another country. I didn't (as far as I know) contribute to this happening but I'm still ashamed as an American that it did happen. Unless I become an expatriate I will feel this way. This is my country and to a degree I am a representative of this country. The microcosm reflecting the macrocosm, or something like that.

When a person says Scientologists are brainwashed then he is saying me and my friends are brainwashed.

When it is said that the church is a criminal mafia like organization then he/she is calling me a criminal and a member of a mafia-like organization. I don't think "oh they are talking about someone else."

It sure is a truism that people feel much freer to say what they wish online. Being face to face usually engenders better manners.

yep - Nothing better than a great neighborhood. Unlike some I like the atmosphere of everyone knowing everyone else's business.

In that sense, I know you will take it personally. I haven't said that everyone is brainwashed, btw. I just mean that I don't equate corporate guilt with personal guilt. "America" dropped a bomb, but that has no reflection on personal responsibility.

The rights and wrongs of that bombing are fodder for a different WR thread.:icon_chee

 

[Darwinist]

Ahh - "fair game." About the most I can reply to that is I became familiar with the term as a result of critics bringing it up.

If the order, signed and numbered by Hubbard himself that describes what the fair game policy is about is a fake, why does the CoS insist that it is protected by copyright?

And do you mean to tell me you never heard of almost a dozen high-ranking Scientologists CONFESSING to fair gaming Paulette Cooper, including Hubbard's wife? Its an extremely well-documented case. You should read up on it, like you are always telling critics they should do.

 

[Dizzle]

Well...I've been around for a long time. Since the mid seventies and have done all sorts of things. I'm certainly considered by my peers to be a very dedicated Scientologist. I'm also respected and admired by those same peers for setting a good example of what a Scientologist is and does. (This isn't to say I'm trying to say "mine is bigger than yours" but I have been involved for a while.)

Haven't been beat or locked up yet (Are we including childhood spankings and punishment?)

As far as what my religion is based on is concerned this is covered in our published books and lectures and is available to anyone to peruse.

This a$$hole keeps trying to pawn off some shitty sci-fi books. Selling books is really all the church is concerned about, your a sucker

Scientology is a fraud, they pose as a non-profit charitable organization that has helped "1.6 million" (lol, that probably includes Will) but they charge fees and have shareholders.

Scientology undermines all the good non-profit community service real religions provide

 

[rnaviaux]

If the order, signed and numbered by Hubbard himself that describes what the fair game policy is about is a fake, why does the CoS insist that it is protected by copyright?

And do you mean to tell me you never heard of almost a dozen high-ranking Scientologists CONFESSING to fair gaming Paulette Cooper, including Hubbard's wife? Its an extremely well-documented case. You should read up on it, like you are always telling critics they should do.

I'm not sure I'm always telling critics anything.

Others have covered the "fair game" issue far more thoroughly than I have. As well as the going ons of the Guardians Office.

And I have read up on it.

 

[Scruff Dog]

I appreciate that. But to be clear on my side I do take it personally.

has it occurred to you that your church is involved in things that they do not share with you? what makes you think you know the whole story?

 

[rnaviaux]

This a$$hole keeps trying to pawn off some shitty sci-fi books. Selling books is really all the church is concerned about, your a sucker

Scientology is a fraud, they pose as a non-profit charitable organization that has helped "1.6 million" (lol, that probably includes Will) but they charge fees and have shareholders.

Scientology undermines all the good non-profit community service real religions provide

3 brilliant paragraphs that need no further commentary by me.

 

[rnaviaux]

has it occurred to you that your church is involved in things that they do not share with you? what makes you think you know the whole story?

To be clear. I don't think I know the whole story. I'm not looking over the shoulder of every Scientologist every minute of every day. Sorry if I gave an impression that I "know the whole story."

 

[doyawanna]

To be clear. I don't think I know the whole story. I'm not looking over the shoulder of every Scientologist every minute of every day. Sorry if I gave an impression that I "know the whole story."

You do state you have never heard of "Fair Game" - it was formal policy and term until the press got too bad for this and for the "enforced disconnection" policy.

From Organization Executive Course 1, p.489 (circa early 70's):

FAIR GAME may not appear on any Ethics Order. It causes bad public relations. This Policy Letter does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP

Note that the term was banned, but not the practice. Hubbard's own description of "fair game" was that the target could be "tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." This is from HCOPL, "Penalties for Lower Conditions," 18 October 1967.

 

[rnaviaux]

You do state you have never heard of "Fair Game" - it was formal policy and term until the press got too bad for this and for the "enforced disconnection" policy.

From Organization Executive Course 1, p.489 (circa early 70's):



Note that the term was banned, but not the practice. Hubbard's own description of "fair game" was that the target could be "tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." This is from HCOPL, "Penalties for Lower Conditions," 18 October 1967.

I didn't say I had never heard of it. I said I only hear about it from critics. I believe is was cancelled as it was being misinterpreted. I don't have the policies in front of me however.

I think I was in diapers when this was cancelled.

 

[Dizzle]

3 brilliant paragraphs that need no further commentary by me.

lol