I am an ex-Scientologist. (LONG read)

[doyawanna]

I didn't say I had never heard of it. I said I only hear about it from critics. I believe is was cancelled as it was being misinterpreted. I don't have the policies in front of me however.

I'm not going to make you defend every aspect of your church, I just thought I should point out that these are founding principles of Scientology, direct from LRH himself, not bad behavior from an unknown member. He personally directed Scientologists (particularly Sea Org members who he felt he could trust) to attack "Suppressive Persons" - to trick them, sue them, lie to them, or destroy them - this includes a number of incredibly senior Scientologists. The 2.5% number seems low when you have a Class-12 Auditor who can suddenly be determined "SP."

 

[AgentOrange24]

I've always liked long stories (The Stand comes to mind) and rather enjoyed Battlefield Earth. I can't decide if I like Final Blackout (a short novel) or BE more as far as Ron's science fiction work is concerned.

I don't mind long stories if the stories are good.

I didn't read anything else by him, because quite frankly, and no offense, but he's a science fiction writer.

I'm going to take anything he says about a new religion with a grain of salt, just like I would of Tolkien or Tom Clancy decided they had suddenly realized the truth about the world.

They sell books, its their job. If Dianetics sells more than Battlefield Earth, then he's going to write more about Dianetics.

Not to mention the whole Xenu thing... Good lord. Now THAT should be a book. edit* Apparently it was a screen play that LRH wrote. So, THAT should be a movie.

 

[rnaviaux]

I'm not going to make you defend every aspect of your church, I just thought I should point out that these are founding principles of Scientology, direct from LRH himself, not bad behavior from an unknown member. He personally directed Scientologists (particularly Sea Org members who he felt he could trust) to attack "Suppressive Persons" - to trick them, sue them, lie to them, or destroy them - this includes a number of incredibly senior Scientologists. The 2.5% number seems low when you have a Class-12 Auditor who can suddenly be determined "SP."

Whew! Thats good. My general rule is to not bother with defending my religion. Its a waste of time. There is so much false info that I'd be typing 24/7 and would never be able to prove anything anyway. I've never figured out how to prove a negative anyway. (ie. How do I prove I haven't beaten another Scientologist, etc.)

The full technology of how to handle suppresive persons is available. I'm not inclined to get in a long discussion on that as I hate rewriting huge chunks of text.

The policy of never violating the laws of the land has been in force as long as I can remember. This dates back to the early 50s.

If I observe any illegal acts I'll be sure to do something about it.

 

[rnaviaux]

I don't mind long stories if the stories are good.

I didn't read anything else by him, because quite frankly, and no offense, but he's a science fiction writer.

I'm going to take anything he says about a new religion with a grain of salt, just like I would of Tolkien or Tom Clancy decided they had suddenly realized the truth about the world.

They sell books, its their job. If Dianetics sells more than Battlefield Earth, then he's going to write more about Dianetics.

Not to mention the whole Xenu thing... Good lord. Now THAT should be a book.

Yep - there have been long stories that I didn't enjoy.

I'm not sure of the logic of discounting someone's point of view based on the genres they have published in. I have found many interesting and enlightening "truths" within fiction works of all sorts of authors. Heinlien is a good example of this.

"They sell books" - I guess your referring to the group of individuals known as writers. Dianetics was published in 1950. It sure did sell well. Battlefield Earth came out in 83 if memory serves me right. I have no real idea how well it sold.

As Hubbard wrote in many different genres its amusing to see the constant reference to him as a science fiction writer. Since you have read Battlefield Earth then you may well remember what he says about that in the introduction.

 

[AgentOrange24]

Yep - there have been long stories that I didn't enjoy.

I'm not sure of the logic of discounting someone's point of view based on the genres they have published in. I have found many interesting and enlightening "truths" within fiction works of all sorts of authors. Heinlien is a good example of this.

"They sell books" - I guess your referring to the group of individuals known as writers. Dianetics was published in 1950. It sure did sell well. Battlefield Earth came out in 83 if memory serves me right. I have no real idea how well it sold.

As Hubbard wrote in many different genres its amusing to see the constant reference to him as a science fiction writer. Since you have read Battlefield Earth then you may well remember what he says about that in the introduction.

You're correct on most accounts.

I just can't take something seriously that involves Galactic Overlords and the such seriously. Especially when it was originally a movie script. (Hell, Xenu isn't even the oldest of his aliens, thats been part of it since the 50's, Xenu himself since the 60's)

But in Scientology's defense, I find that story of where bad things come from as equally plausible as a talking snake.

 

[doyawanna]

Whew! Thats good. My general rule is to not bother with defending my religion. Its a waste of time. There is so much false info that I'd be typing 24/7 and would never be able to prove anything anyway. I've never figured out how to prove a negative anyway. (ie. How do I prove I haven't beaten another Scientologist, etc.)

The full technology of how to handle suppresive persons is available. I'm not inclined to get in a long discussion on that as I hate rewriting huge chunks of text.

The policy of never violating the laws of the land has been in force as long as I can remember. This dates back to the early 50s.

If I observe any illegal acts I'll be sure to do something about it.

Did I just hear you admit to beating non-Scientologists!!??!!


I wish you all the best in life and with your beliefs. As I said, I hold no illusions we will convince each other. Perhaps I place too much emphasis on LRH's own words back in the day and the documented badness of the Sea Org - I know there has always been a divide between the "public" church and the Sea Org and Missions (I guess you would call them "staff"). From the outside it appears to be two almost completely separate entities. I don't know if you would agree with that or not.

 

[doyawanna]

You're correct on most accounts.

I just can't take something seriously that involves Galactic Overlords and the such seriously. Especially when it was originally a movie script. (Hell, Xenu isn't even the oldest of his aliens, thats been part of it since the 50's, Xenu himself since the 60's)

But in Scientology's defense, I find that story of where bad things come from as equally plausible as a talking snake.

[YT]WXatiqeOGeo[/YT]

 

[rnaviaux]

Did I just hear you admit to beating non-Scientologists!!??!!


I wish you all the best in life and with your beliefs. As I said, I hold no illusions we will convince each other. Perhaps I place too much emphasis on LRH's own words back in the day and the documented badness of the Sea Org - I know there has always been a divide between the "public" church and the Sea Org and Missions (I guess you would call them "staff"). From the outside it appears to be two almost completely separate entities. I don't know if you would agree with that or not.

I would agree that the Sea Organization is a separate entity. (I used to be in the Sea Org myself by the way.) The Sea Organization is the highest level of Scientology church. Never worked harder in my life than when I was in the Sea Org. There are numerous branches of the Sea Org, each with separate specialties. Of course they as well as all Scientologists have the responsibility to help the church to flourish and prosper.

I have no problem with placing emphasis on Mr. Hubbard's own words. I find it illuminating that many things he did say aren't quoted which would give an opposite appearance than critics like to present. No real surprise there

 

[rnaviaux]

Did I just hear you admit to beating non-Scientologists!!??!!


I wish you all the best in life and with your beliefs. As I said, I hold no illusions we will convince each other. Perhaps I place too much emphasis on LRH's own words back in the day and the documented badness of the Sea Org - I know there has always been a divide between the "public" church and the Sea Org and Missions (I guess you would call them "staff"). From the outside it appears to be two almost completely separate entities. I don't know if you would agree with that or not.

I beat up non-Scientologists every week. It's quite fun. I also get beat up by non-Scientologists every week. Not as much fun but certainly a learning experience!

Just imagine how someone not familiar with mma and jiu-jitsu would view that statement.

 

[willhaven720]

Hi everyone...

I'd like to pause this ongoing debate for just a moment. I guess you could call it a moment of silence.

I've been really caught up in my own situation (as you all know), and haven't really been paying any attention to the world at large.

I'm sure most of you by now, but the island of Haiti experienced a massive earthquake yesterday. The death toll of which is now being estimated at 100,000+.

This is one of the largest natural disasters in human history. And while many of us may not be in a position to help directly, I think we can all put away our swords and give a moment of our thoughts/prayers/postulates towards these devastated people.

I cannot even imagine the terror of having family or friends in this area with no way of finding out weather anyone is even alive.

It will be a very long time before the people of Haiti make a comeback. They were the underdogs to begin with. And a KO of this nature isn't easily shaken. So let's keep them in our hearts and minds for as long as it takes and never forget what they went though now.

Thanks.

 

[oFUNGUSo]

wholly fark....i knew scientology was rather fruity....i had absolutley NO idea that it was like that though. im horrified, really.

 

[Darwinist]

Hi everyone...

I'd like to pause this ongoing debate for just a moment. I guess you could call it a moment of silence.

Seconded...

 

[willhaven720]

So yeah...

That's me at the raid.

I had a bandanna around my neck, which I wore on my face when I arrived. That was only for solidarity. I really wanted those who were filming from inside the building to see my face. So I took it off right away.

 

[willhaven720]

Seconded...

/bow

 

[Lakehed**]

I am going to read this entire thread, I'm about half way threw

this is wild man. I'm very sorry to hear about your uncle, I know it was awhile but, but sorry to hear nonetheless.

You have a talent for writing dude, no question about it. I'm basically up to the part in the thread where people are wondering if this is ligit or not.

I have to say I know WilHaven must be ligit cause of his post history. Dude wrote the funniest damn post on sherdog awhile back, I just can't believe this whole thing is a set up, Wilhaven seems ligit.

I'd love to hit a bong with ya sometime buddy, show you how good Canadian ganja can be

 

[Lakehed**]

OK. Sorry to scare you all. I took my dog to the vet and went to the ER to get lab work done on my blood, urine and a water sample from my shower.

Came back clean. My organs are all good. No poisonous effects in my system. Dog is great.

That was a relief.

Please explain this to me.

You can go to the ER and the vets office, and get results that quickly? And how in the blue hell does an ER do lab work on water? I've never heard of this in my life.

 

[Lakehed**]

I don't think he is attacking DSD's faith. He is attacking mine. (DSD isn't a Scientologist. I am.)

Slight correction: "Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No."

I would disagree with this and say that it is a priority to do "good things". In fact it is thoroughly covered in many of our basic books and lectures. Since the church is working so hard to make these materials available to everyone and get them to study these materials then it seems to me that the church is making it a priority to do "good things."

Anyone is free to get a book, study it and apply some of the principles therein and see if the results are as claimed.

The books aren't free there buddy. You have to BUY them, or in your case, SELL them.

Why not have a forum similar to a christian church, for instance. You can come in week after week if you so choose, leave without spending money, hear the lessons the church leaders are trying to teach and you can do all of this without ever having to talk to a single person in the church.

I was raised catholic and lost my faith, but before I did I went to church pretty often and nobody ever tried to sell me anything or even get me to do anything, just some mild polite conversation here and there, nothing else though. For months.
(in the years before that I went to a different church with my parents, I was an alter boy and everything. didn't get molested tho.)

If you agree with the message, you can donate money for the upkeep of the church and participate in the community. If you don't, you are free to leave and never come again, or come every so often, whatever. Without spending a dime if you don't want too.

How long could you go without spending any money on your church?

 

[DrSatanDracula]

So yeah...

That's me at the raid.

I had a bandanna around my neck, which I wore on my face when I arrived. That was only for solidarity. I really wanted those who were filming from inside the building to see my face. So I took it off right away.

Then sir, you are not a coward. I respet that you showed your face.

I rescind that comment in relation to you. However, I do not rescind it in relation to your coward compatriots.

 

[Lakehed**]

Then sir, you are not a coward. I respet that you showed your face.

I rescind that comment in relation to you. However, I do not rescind it in relation to your coward compatriots.

some people don't like the cult of scientology, but don't want to be harrassed about it. This does not make them cowards, are you crazy or something?

These guys fucked up Will's uncles life to the point where he took his own life. I imagine nobody wants to see that happen to family members.

 

[DrSatanDracula]

(1) I disagree with you about Will's legitimacy and honesty of posting. I understand that he is basically attacking your faith, so your reaction is totally understandable.

I'm not a scientologist. I've read about 100 pages of Dianetics, that's all.

I'd like to read the rest. I probably will after I get through with this book on George Washington.

(2) My problem with the CoS, and the reason I think it's important to shine light on it, is twofold:

(a) The Church, directly under Hubbard's control and under his successors, has engaged in systemic abuse of power. Every neutral report and every ex-scientologist seems to support this fact. Are there good people in Scientology? Absolutely. Do many of them do good things? Yes. Is they "Church" structured in any way that makes this a priority? No. It is designed to help people "improve themselves" by taking courses at a high price, and holding a pseudo-mystical nirvana ideal as a carrot to keep advancing (and paying). In the end, it takes from people and gives nothing back (okay, to be fair, it gives back a sense of purpose, a community, and structure to people). The abbsurd lengths taken to keep senior ex-pats from talking is rather shocking, and tells most rational people that the whole thing is likely a shell game.

Judging from the success of many of its members, it seems odd to say that the Church of Scientology doesn't provide a spiritually and intellectually fertile ground. It is, of course, also an expensive process, but this seems to be the case owing to the fact that...a growing religion needs money. Relying on alms would not allow the church to grow.

I do not like stiffling talk about the Church though. But any organization needs to work PR.

(b) My second issue is based on my background in engineering and pure sciences. I look at empirical evidence of results and there has been ZERO evidence that anything the CoS preaches has any truth to it. There is no evidence that even the "highest level" scientologist has any better mental stabilty, physical health, or ability to change their environment than any other person. None. Scientology simply promises something that it doesn't deliver, and asks that you pay a huge sum of money to get to hear these "secrets" that have no definable value other than the joy of reaching a goal. And yes, I know you know people who have been changed by Scientology... but anecdotal evidence always supports your beliefs, it's the way we are wired. This isn't a normal religion where faith is the goal - this is supposed to be science that has measurable effects, and it has NONE. If it did, then the CoS would be running huge stories in the newspapers you seem so gung-ho on.

I am not so sure this is true. Scientologists seem to be remarkably well adapted to life, succesful, and happy. Dianetics seems also a highly reasonable book. I have not read through all of this, but the methods discussed in Dianetics seem to produce a highly stable, mentally prepared person.

The scientific claims of super powers (if there are any) are clearly wrong though, yes.

But for tha tmatter...so is almost 90 percent of psychology.

So that's my personal problem with the "Church". Not the people, but the deep-rooted structural lie (and inherent corruption) that I see as the very foundation of the business. It's not a symptom of bad apples, it's the roots of the organization: get money from people, no matter how. Just rubs me the wrong way.

I can agree, but so far I haven't found that in Dianetics.