Hwa Rang Do

[Doughbelly]

TKD is karate. Pure and simple.

http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/5008/HistoryofTaekwondo.pdf

The bullshit "history" that Koreans give about their martial arts is kinda sad. It's basically renamed Japanese martial arts. Not like it's likely to matter -- you repeat something as true for long enough, people eventually accept it.

TKD quit being karate a long time ago.

Why is it that older Korean masters that were around during the formation can talk about the history of martial arts on the Korean continent in one sentence and Lee, Won Kuk's Shotokan lineage and dan rank in another without irony?

If every plank of Odysseus' ship was replaced during his ten year cruise, is it the same boat? What if it were rebuilt after it burned?

People with primarily Western perspectives could go to Nam-dae-mun and have a series of frustrating conversations with the guides.

How old is this building? It was built in 1398, so it is over 600 years old.
Is it the original bulding? Oh, yes.
Hasn't it been destroyed and rebuilt several times? Certainly.
It's the original building, even though there's nothing original from 1398? Yes.
How can you call this the original building, then?!?! What are you, some kind of retard, what don't you get? It's the original building, it's been rebuilt a couple times. Why aren't you capable of understanding this?

When an educated Korean hears two stories, one about the history of TKD going back thousands of years, the other about how modern TKD was developed by a bunch of Karate and a couple of kenpo/kung fu guys, he doesn't hear two conflicting stories.

You tell a bunch of primarily Western style thinkers the two stories and you end up with people accusing each other of fraud.

What's sad here is that when it comes to genuine cultural differences in understanding such as this, most people will never get it.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

What's sad here is that when it comes to genuine cultural differences in understanding such as this, most people will never get it.

What I get in this context is how genuinely western I am.

 

[Zankou]

TKD quit being karate a long time ago.

Why is it that older Korean masters that were around during the formation can talk about the history of martial arts on the Korean continent in one sentence and Lee, Won Kuk's Shotokan lineage and dan rank in another without irony?

If every plank of Odysseus' ship was replaced during his ten year cruise, is it the same boat? What if it were rebuilt after it burned?

People with primarily Western perspectives could go to Nam-dae-mun and have a series of frustrating conversations with the guides.

How old is this building? It was built in 1398, so it is over 600 years old.
Is it the original bulding? Oh, yes.
Hasn't it been destroyed and rebuilt several times? Certainly.
It's the original building, even though there's nothing original from 1398? Yes.
How can you call this the original building, then?!?! What are you, some kind of retard, what don't you get? It's the original building, it's been rebuilt a couple times. Why aren't you capable of understanding this?

When an educated Korean hears two stories, one about the history of TKD going back thousands of years, the other about how modern TKD was developed by a bunch of Karate and a couple of kenpo/kung fu guys, he doesn't hear two conflicting stories.

You tell a bunch of primarily Western style thinkers the two stories and you end up with people accusing each other of fraud.

What's sad here is that when it comes to genuine cultural differences in understanding such as this, most people will never get it.

TKD quit being karate about 50 years ago, following the end of the Japanese occupation and the surge in Korean nationalism.

It's not that I don't understand the "korean-style" way of doing things. I'm married to a Korean, born in Seoul. It's that certain aspects of the "history" of Korea are ridiculously nationalistic, revisionist, and contrived. We are all supposed to forget the complex links and histories that actually happened in favor of some flag-waving bullshit narrative where, if you repeat it often enough and overlook logic, eventually becomes the only narrative. In the case of TKD, it's been so thoroughly white-washed that people are confused enough to think of it as truly being an ancient Korean art with some minor Japanese influences. And if you don't go along with the charade, you are some evil, antisocial enemy.

This is one reason why I generally can't stand the "history" of the martial arts. It's just nonsense piled on top of nonsense. We have a guy in this thread who posted about how the Chinese taught the Koreans TKD techniques to fight the Japanese hundreds of years ago ... people actually believe this sort of nationalist, revisionist garbage.

 

[ozyabbas]

TKD quit being karate about 50 years ago, following the end of the Japanese occupation and the surge in Korean nationalism.

It's not that I don't understand the "korean-style" way of doing things. I'm married to a Korean, born in Seoul. It's that certain aspects of the "history" of Korea are ridiculously nationalistic, revisionist, and contrived. We are all supposed to forget the complex links and histories that actually happened in favor of some flag-waving bullshit narrative where, if you repeat it often enough and overlook logic, eventually becomes the only narrative. In the case of TKD, it's been so thoroughly white-washed that people are confused enough to think of it as truly being an ancient Korean art with some minor Japanese influences. And if you don't go along with the charade, you are some evil, antisocial enemy.

This is one reason why I generally can't stand the "history" of the martial arts. It's just nonsense piled on top of nonsense. We have a guy in this thread who posted about how the Chinese taught the Koreans TKD techniques to fight the Japanese hundreds of years ago ... people actually believe this sort of nationalist, revisionist garbage.

I am also married to a Korean who lived in Seoul but born in Daegu. Nationalism will always conquer logic when talking to Koreans.
On a personal level, Koreans can get on very well with Japanese people but as a nation are very anti-Japanese.
They also have a kind of love hate relationship with the US. I remember the whole US beef issue 2 years ago, there was national outrage over an issue that was in essence quite minor.

 

[Doughbelly]

TKD quit being karate about 50 years ago, following the end of the Japanese occupation and the surge in Korean nationalism.

It's not that I don't understand the "korean-style" way of doing things. I'm married to a Korean, born in Seoul. It's that certain aspects of the "history" of Korea are ridiculously nationalistic, revisionist, and contrived. We are all supposed to forget the complex links and histories that actually happened in favor of some flag-waving bullshit narrative where, if you repeat it often enough and overlook logic, eventually becomes the only narrative. In the case of TKD, it's been so thoroughly white-washed that people are confused enough to think of it as truly being an ancient Korean art with some minor Japanese influences. And if you don't go along with the charade, you are some evil, antisocial enemy.

This is one reason why I generally can't stand the "history" of the martial arts. It's just nonsense piled on top of nonsense. We have a guy in this thread who posted about how the Chinese taught the Koreans TKD techniques to fight the Japanese hundreds of years ago ... people actually believe this sort of nationalist, revisionist garbage.

And these people are morons and morons will continue to believe on face value. Idiots are idiots. That's just human nature. Need I remind you of birthers?

This kind of thing takes place on all levels, in all nations.

Who is it that is calling you the evil, anti-social enemy? Let's define the groups of people we're talking about before we weigh ourselves down with too many generalizations.

Years ago, I would have agreed with everything you said. I ended up dumping Korean MAs - I don't find a lot of technical value, either - around the time I just about had it with what I perceived as Korean revisionism. Time passed and my understanding changed. I still find little to no value in most Korean MAs but at least I'm no longer that guy arguing with museum docents wondering why they didn't get it. I was that dude who didn't get it.

 

[JudoThrowdown]

Just to correct this history: Guns came to Japan BEFORE the shogunate, with the Dutch, in the 1500s. Nobunaga set the stage for the shogunate in large part because he was so dominant with his use of arquebus wielding commoners.

Battle of Nagashino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

True, but they were soon banned by shoguns since it gave the foot soldiers the edge over the mounted samurai. Japan is the only country I know that went from gun to bow and arrow. Americans introduced modern stuff again and japan finally recognized and repected the presence of guns.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

When an educated Korean hears two stories, one about the history of TKD going back thousands of years, the other about how modern TKD was developed by a bunch of Karate and a couple of kenpo/kung fu guys, he doesn't hear two conflicting stories.

Actually, I kinda do...

 

[bora y]

someone in the comments section mentioned it too, but at about 1:48 the guy did a twister, then a banana split, and then a little late he did some sort or pseudo jumping inverted triangle sweep, i'm sure all of which are some sort of ancient ma techniques.

 

[lethalazn]

Here's two things that came into mind when I watched that video

"You know 1000 moves, and you suck at every one"- Carlson Gracie

Fear not those who has practiced 5000 subs 10 times each, fear those who has practiced 10 subs 5000 times each

 

[Kforcer]

Southeast Asia, not Korea. That game is played from Burma all the way over to the Indonesia. It's not played in Korea.

May I ask:

--the name

--its level of popularity

--anything and everything you know about it

 

[keynote]

I'm of the mind that if there is an opportunity to train or at least experience a martial art and it's philosophy, and you decline, in thinking that "oh that's just not effective," that you are inherently limiting your own expression in the martial arts.

I'm of the same opinion. For me, it's about finding what's effective and to close your mind immediately because of preconceptions is limiting your capacity to learn.

I'm not a gigantic supporter of TMA's and people who vehemently defend them to the death or anything, but there's something to learn everywhere.

 

[ShindoNinja]

Just as many Grapplers poke fun at the Korean Arts today doing BJJ against a Samurai back then would have been pointless.

Sorry for the history lesson. I don't even study Hwa Rang Do or Tae Kwon Do, but i do believe that every martial arts has or had it's time and place.

I agree every art has it's time and place but disagree that bbj would not work against a Samurai. It's roots are in Samurai combat. Punching and kicking an armored (unarmed) opponent is pretty useless. Joint locks still work though.

 

[Doughbelly]

I think it's funny how people pick and choose periods of Japanese history to suit their own arguments. For over 300 years prior to the Meiji restoration, samurai did not wear armor and didn't fight on battlefields. Technique moved from battlefield practicality to formalization and one on one dueling. Swords themselves change from heavier armor choppers to light, fast slender blades. So did fighting styles.

Yet people believe that strikes didn't exist because of armor? No one wore armor since the beginning of the Edo period! Japanese fighting arts aren't grappling based because of armor. They're grappling based because you have to grapple in order control a man's sword arm.

People learn all these arts and completely misinterpret the reasons why. It's like aikido/jujutsu people who start doing wrist grab defenses on both sides, "for balance." Hey, that's great, but that's not the way it worked. Trad schools only practice the right wrist grab, because that is the most likely thing an attacker would do to you before he stabbed you - to keep you from drawing your sword. And ALL samurai fought right handed.

 

[Doughbelly]

May I ask:

--the name

--its level of popularity

--anything and everything you know about it

Here's a Wikipedia article to get you started:

Sepak takraw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not very well traveled in SE Asia so caveat lector...

Anyway, some of the Wikipedia articles that it links to don't seem to be quite right or are at the very least, incomplete. For example, when I was in Burma, I never really saw the chin lone referenced in the Wiki article and what I saw at the village level very much resembled the competitive sport played elsewhere in SE Asia. They all called it chin lone but Burma was for some reason, the most linguistically difficult of all the places I worked, so maybe I just didn't get it.

Anyway, in Burma, at least in the delta, every village had at least one simple dirt court. Usually more. From what I understand, it's like this all over Burma. I always saw more kids playing this than football (soccer), for example.

In Cambodia, I saw plenty of it, especially in villages. There was this big ass competition in Battambang that I caught a bit of. These dudes were doing the whole backflip kick spike thing but I didn't stick around because I wanted to go watch some Cambodian boxing at some temples. Only when I got there, no one was around because they'd all gone to watch the takraw tournament.

I always got the impression that it was a village sport, but that might just be because of visibility in cities. I never get much out of big cities in Thailand or Vietnam so I wouldn't know. Maybe Payak in the standup forums can tell you more about the game in Thailand.

Except for Singapore, I've haven't spent much time in the SE Asian islands, so I wouldn't know how it is in Malaysia/Indonesia/Philipines.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

= choreographed japanese jiu-jitsu with lots of shouting by the uke?

I saw good flow and poor control. .

You're never going to see "good control" in a demo.