How SJWs Ruined Star Wars!

[Clear Winner]

Because neither of them know it? Poe was shooting at troopers, he can't see under their mask and Finn was part of an assault force. Several of the civilians were firing back, it's not like Finn has telescopic vision, realized Poe shot his friend, then just decided to forgive him. In fact, he had a complete panic attack then emotional meltdown following the scene.

How the heck is anyone supposed to know who on what side shot whom here?

About the map, it is more important to Snoke that Luke is removed from the table than finding him, especially if it means that the Rebels can find him. He wants information, but if he can't get it, there are strict orders to destroy everything pertaining to it. Ren disobeys sometimes because of his own agenda and Hux even chides him about it.

You got me on the 1st point. I hadn't re watched that scene and was going by what the dude in the vid said. Finn's change from shit scared trooper to ruthless murderer is still ridiculous.

The movie still has way too many bits that don't make sense though. Ultimately, it's a ham-fisted version of New Hope, with PIS in place to make it all fit the stencil.

Hamill didn't like it either.

 

[Clear Winner]

More importantly why FInn would be disturbed by the death of one of his fellow troopers and then gleefully blast a load more of them a few mins latter in the Tie fighter.

The answer is I think clearly bad writing, Abrams has admitted that Finn was originally going to be some kind of smalltime crook or just a nobody with dreams or heroism and the idea to have him as defecting trooper came late on. Unfortunately they included it without changing his character which really does not mesh at all with his background.

The script for TFA to me is your typical rushed bodge job, its all over the place and just looks to throw action/humour/nostalgia at you so fast you don't notice it.

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier too.

Never knew that about the original idea. Makes sense that a lot of those parts don;t really fit too well.

 

[ookii]

Kylo had the same force skills as the two jabronies that got taken by the Sithlord when Mace tried to arrest him. How does a dark lord get taken down by a storm trooper?

 

[Torrid]

You got me on the 1st point. I hadn't re watched that scene and was going by what the dude in the vid said. Finn's change from shit scared trooper to ruthless murderer is still ridiculous.

The movie still has way too many bits that don't make sense though. Ultimately, it's a ham-fisted version of New Hope, with PIS in place to make it all fit the stencil.

Hamill didn't like it either.

Sorry, but just because the video is labeled, "Mark shits on the new movie", doesn't mean he actually is - he just disagrees with some choices. He even knows his place as an actor; with the interviews for the second film he said he fundamentally disagrees with the direction they took Luke, but it was his job to help them create that vision. He's always been a good guy, a fan of the series, and not afraid to speak his mind - that's fine because he does it without being an ass. It's just too bad people attribute titles to his words that weren't there.

Again, the scene with Kylo and Han, sure, it could have been different. The thing is though, we don't know Rey. So we sit here and say, 'Han died sort of in isolation', which might be true - it might just be there for the arc of Kylo (and like I said, to get the real impact, you'd have to read the book which is always a problem with Star Wars - they describe scenes better in books than film). Or, maybe because Rey was viewing Han as a father figure, seeing as how she was orphaned, it will play out more in the second film.

In Legends, the two most powerful force users of the next line were Jayna and Jacen Solo - two twins from Leia. Disney is always pulling from Legends, so maybe they have history and the impact will resonate in other films - maybe not. However, just judging how the first movie affects the second before it even comes out seems completely unfair.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier too.

Never knew that about the original idea. Makes sense that a lot of those parts don;t really fit too well.

It was either Abrams of Kasdan that mentioned it.

Honestly Rey isn't much better is she? the film spends a few mins setting up her lonely wait on Jakku for her family but as soon as the action starts pretty much ignores that motivation and instead pushes her towards the force with no real setup.

TFA is like most Abrams an incredibly plot driven film, it throws its characters around to suit the "rollercoaster" demands and then has a few dramatic moments it tries to play as epic dispite not having done any of the groundwork to set them up. Rey using the force basically comes down to "it was important when Luke learned the force so it must be here as well".

 

[Torrid]

Kylo had the same force skills as the two jabronies that got taken by the Sithlord when Mace tried to arrest him. How does a dark lord get taken down by a storm trooper?

Shot by a bowcaster before the fight and he still beats Finn.

Also, c'mon. Palpatine is literally one of the strongest Sith lords to ever exist - he cut down three masters in like 5 seconds and was only stopped by Mace because of Vaapad. Comparing apprentice Kylo to Palpatine is like asking why Luke gets blasted by lightning while Yoda deflects it.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Shot by a bowcaster before the fight and he still beats Finn.

Also, c'mon. Palpatine is literally one of the strongest Sith lords to ever exist - he cut down three masters in like 5 seconds and was only stopped by Mace because of Vaapad. Comparing apprentice Kylo to Palpatine is like asking why Luke gets blasted by lightning while Yoda deflects it.

This is really just a cheap way to try and justify lazy writing though, when it comes to the fight itself Kylo shows very little effect of the injury and your left with no doubt that Rey defeats him due to superior ability. Abrams to me is just the master of going after low hanging fruit, if theres a cheap way to get an audience reaction they he'll take it even itf makes little sense and damages future films.

If the film really wanted to go this route it should have commited much more to the idea that Rey had these supressed force abilities that went beyond what we'd seen previously. Say have her showing involuntary powers on Jakku that lead to her being feared by the locals, both sets up her beating Kylo and gives some drama to her accepting the force that she'd previously feared.

 

[Torrid]

This is really just a cheap way to try and justify lazy writing though, when it comes to the fight itself Kylo shows very little effect of the injury and your left with no doubt that Rey defeats him due to superior ability. Abrams to me is just the master of going after low hanging fruit, if theres a cheap way to get an audience reaction they he'll take it even itf makes little sense and damages future films.

If the film really wanted to go this route it should have commited much more to the idea that Rey had these supressed force abilities that went beyond what we'd seen previously. Say have her showing involuntary powers on Jakku that lead to her being feared by the locals, both sets up her beating Kylo and gives some drama to her accepting the force that she'd previously feared.

Goddamn it... you're right.

What if they showed Rey using a force ability that the movies had never shown before though? That would have been really cool; something that hasn't been shown in the films, but talked about in other forms like, Psychometry used by Vos. Let Rey use that! Like when she's lead by force visions to Anakin's lightsaber then uses that ability on it to see into the past... oh wait - they did.

My bad.

She also pushed Kylo out of her mind when he was using the Force to peel through her memories.

I'm sorry that being shot by a fucking gun isn't enough reason for you to believe that a barely trained space wizard should lose to another space wizard though.

 

[Bubzeh]

Almost 2018 and people still watch Star Wars hahaha. Unreal.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Goddamn it... you're right.

What if they showed Rey using a force ability that the movies had never shown before though? That would have been really cool; something that hasn't been shown in the films, but talked about in other forms like, Psychometry used by Vos. Let Rey use that! Like when she's lead by force visions to Anakin's lightsaber then uses that ability on it to see into the past... oh wait - they did.

My bad.

She also pushed Kylo out of her mind when he was using the Force to peel through her memories.

I'm sorry that being shot by a fucking gun isn't enough reason for you to believe that a barely trained space wizard should lose to another space wizard though.

That whole "vision" segment for me is again just lazy writing looking to rush some force link to Rey rather than build a real connection as with Luke where the force was linked to his family history and desire for adventure/enlightenment. Whilst its an ability we'd not seen previously I don't think it hints at some great hidden power in Rey who indeed is quickly defeated by Kylo.

Again Kylo being shot is pretty clearly an attempt at building in an excuse for his losing the fight. In reality though Abrams ignores his injury when he's confronting Rey, he's swining away with his lightsaber quite freely with again no implication that it causes his defeat. Very typical for him as a film maker I'd say, he often seems to drop these kinds of elements without really committing to them because he knows people on the net with do the legwork for him, doesn't matter if something is anygood just that theres an argument to defend it with.

 

[Torrid]

That whole "vision" segment for me is again just lazy writing looking to rush some force link to Rey rather than build a real connection as with Luke where the force was linked to his family history and desire for adventure/enlightenment. Whilst its an ability we'd not seen previously I don't think it hints at some great hidden power in Rey who indeed is quickly defeated by Kylo.

Again Kylo being shot is pretty clearly an attempt at building in an excuse for his losing the fight. In reality though Abrams ignores his injury when he's confronting Rey, he's swining away with his lightsaber quite freely with again no implication that it causes his defeat. Very typical for him as a film maker I'd say, he often seems to drop these kinds of elements without really committing to them because he knows people on the net with do the legwork for him, doesn't matter if something is anygood just that theres an argument to defend it with.

Yeah, if you disregard all the parts of the movie that don't fit your narrative then I guess you can make any argument you want.

You said that Rey should have expressed some latent form of force potential - well, she did, it multiple ways at different times, but you choose to disregard it.

You complain that Kylo underperformed, even though he was injured to an extent that would be fatal to any non-force user.

There is clearly no point in having a conversation with you; so continue shouting into the abyss and know, it's okay if you just don't like something - you don't have to do mental gymnastics and ignore facts because of it.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Yeah, if you disregard all the parts of the movie that don't fit your narrative then I guess you can make any argument you want.

You said that Rey should have expressed some latent form of force potential - well, she did, it multiple ways at different times, but you choose to disregard it.

You complain that Kylo underperformed, even though he was injured to an extent that would be fatal to any non-force user.

There is clearly no point in having a conversation with you; so continue shouting into the abyss and know, it's okay if you just don't like something - you don't have to do mental gymnastics and ignore facts because of it.

Its clearly no point having a conversation with me as I'm disagreeing with you? you can keep that passive aggressive insult as well, you seem pretty dam commited to arguing about the subject yourself.

As I said actually watch the fight between Rey and Kylo, it simply isn't filmed to show the latter struggling with an injury which as I said comes off to me as a rather sheepish excuse the film itself doesn't even commit to.

 

[Desdinova]

I haven't seen any of the new star wars. I've only seen episodes 1-6.

 

[Torrid]

Its clearly no point having a conversation with me as I'm disagreeing with you? you can keep that passive aggressive insult as well, you seem pretty dam commited to arguing about the subject yourself.

As I said actually watch the fight between Rey and Kylo, it simply isn't filmed to show the latter struggling with an injury which as I said comes off to me as a rather sheepish excuse the film itself doesn't even commit to.

Dude... what?

Kylo is shown:

1) being shot

2) staggering around

3) aggressively pounding his wound to try and make himself feel more hurt and anger to power his dark side (which as I mentioned before is actually WEAKER now than before killing his father as explained in the book)

4) struggling with a non-force user in Finn because of his wound

5) ultimately being bested by Rey

That seems like commitment. They foreshadowed Rey's powers as I previously stated, but apparently you decided those don't count, but again, commitment to the narrative by the film.

Also, Kylo obviously isn't trying to outright kill Rey. He takes the time to parry her and talk to her during the fight - trying to convince her to join him. So, time and time again, arrogance lead to a Sith's downfall in combat. Why did he want Rey so bad? Maybe they're related, maybe he left her on Jakku, maybe Rey is someone he knew - the audience doesn't know who Rey is, so it is meant to be left dramatically hanging.

 

[n...not crazy]

Hard to destroy Star Wars after the prequels. That would be like destroying poop.

There are 3 Star Wars movies. That's all there ever will be.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Dude... what?

Kylo is shown:

1) being shot

2) staggering around

3) aggressively pounding his wound to try and make himself feel more hurt and anger to power his dark side (which as I mentioned before is actually WEAKER now than before killing his father as explained in the book)

4) struggling with a non-force user in Finn because of his wound

5) ultimately being bested by Rey

That seems like commitment. They foreshadowed Rey's powers as I previously stated, but apparently you decided those don't count, but again, commitment to the narrative by the film.

Also, Kylo obviously isn't trying to outright kill Rey. He takes the time to parry her and talk to her during the fight - trying to convince her to join him. So, time and time again, arrogance lead to a Sith's downfall in combat. Why did he want Rey so bad? Maybe they're related, maybe he left her on Jakku, maybe Rey is someone he knew - the audience doesn't know who Rey is, so it is meant to be left dramatically hanging.

We see him being shot, a bit of staggering as his leaves the complex and punching his stomach, when it comes to actually confronting Rey he's simply not shown to be fighting like a wounded man at all, he's swinging his sabre perfectly freely. Indeed the inconsistent nature of his injury(plus why he doesn't defect/freeze the blast and how he survives it) to me seems as much an issue as his losing the fight, I'd preffer they'd left it out entirely.

It really comes back to the weakness of Rey's character for me, because theres really not much weight to her accepting the force due to her having little connection to it previously Abrams looks instead to give her a resounding victory over the badguy and indeed to include another Deathstar to be destroyed. If she'd been a stronger character we wouldn't have needed that stuff to be added as indeed it wasn't in Rogue One where the lead did have some depth to her.

 

[I Am Legion]

Dude... what?

Kylo is shown:

1) being shot

2) staggering around

3) aggressively pounding his wound to try and make himself feel more hurt and anger to power his dark side (which as I mentioned before is actually WEAKER now than before killing his father as explained in the book)

4) struggling with a non-force user in Finn because of his wound

5) ultimately being bested by Rey

That seems like commitment. They foreshadowed Rey's powers as I previously stated, but apparently you decided those don't count, but again, commitment to the narrative by the film.

Also, Kylo obviously isn't trying to outright kill Rey. He takes the time to parry her and talk to her during the fight - trying to convince her to join him. So, time and time again, arrogance lead to a Sith's downfall in combat. Why did he want Rey so bad? Maybe they're related, maybe he left her on Jakku, maybe Rey is someone he knew - the audience doesn't know who Rey is, so it is meant to be left dramatically hanging.

Such a huge plot hole should have been spotted by the director. Finn has never wielded a light saber. Rey has never been trained. Even injured it's a plot hole. So now we look at Kylo as weak, not something any dark side character ever was. People shit on the prequels but Darth Maul was bad as fuck.

As for the casting....Finn sux. Poe sux. Kylo sux. I'm split on Rey. Rogue One was better in those regards imo.
--

 

[Torrid]

Such a huge plot hole should have been spotted by the director. Finn has never wielded a light saber. Rey has never been trained. Even injured it's a plot hole. So now we look at Kylo as weak, not something any dark side character ever was. People shit on the prequels but Darth Maul was bad as fuck.

As for the casting....Finn sux. Poe sux. Kylo sux. I'm split on Rey. Rogue One was better in those regards imo.
--

I said this already in the thread, but I'll repeat it: New Order troopers are far more specialized and better trained (since youth mind you), than Imperial Troopers. Though the armor looks similar, the people underneath and the years of combat training they undergo set them far apart. All of them receive melee combat training as well as stun baton training (which as was shown, can deflect sabers).

Also, people are just assuming that Kylo is Vader 2.0 - he is not - not close. He might have potential, but he is not a war hardened general that was previously a Jedi master. It is to be expected that he underwent some training under Luke, and possibly some under Snoke - but we don't know yet. Palpatine never really trained Vader in the form of lessons, it is very possible that Snoke isn't training Kylo in a conventional sense either - making it very likely that Kylo has not been in many (if any) one on one lightsaber confrontations with another force user.

Kylo is clearly different. If people choose to view that as weak, that's fine, but different isn't always bad. He has displayed an ability never seen when he froze the blaster bolt mid-air. He used the force to pry information out of a man's mind, something that took the entire council to do in the Clone Wars series. He clearly has powers, but does he have the grit or is he a paper tiger? Who knows.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Awesome this thread turned into geek Starwars thread hahahahah

 

[My Spot]

This is dumb. There are good articles out there however about how Lucas ruined RotJ.