How good was Matt Hughes as a grappler?

mkt said:
Royce always looked frail unless he roided to the gills like the last Sakuraba fight. He had a skinny dad bod in the early UFCs, but you couldn't really tell because of his gi.
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He had 50 something luta livre fights prior to the ufc and he got the shit beat out of him by kimo. Royce took plenty of hits
 
mkt said:
I doubt many WWs in the early 2000s would submit Royce. It's possible they could, but that's like the hardest route to victory. Just force him to stand and get a KO/TKO or dominant UD win. Or even take him down and do some GnP and control him, but don't play his game with too many scrambles going for subs. No reason to risk that when there are easier ways to win. Don't try to beat him in his strongest area.

Renzo had a lot of losses in the early 2000s but Sakuraba was the only guy to submit him. Guys like BJ Penn just walked out and KO'd him. I think young BJ might have subbed him or at least won a UD in a grappling match, but why risk it?
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Matt didn't tap him though, he did take him down and smash him out.
 
Intermission said:
He had 50 something luta livre fights prior to the ufc and he got the shit beat out of him by kimo. Royce took plenty of hits
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Wow, I was on the AOL message boards back in the mid-90s and even then we got rid of the Gracie Kool-Aid drinkers pronto. Royce had some easy Gracie Challenge exhibition matches before the UFC, fighting TKD white belts and stuff. He has no documented record of anythign else I'm sure you believe Rickson's 400-0 record, too. Of course Rickson actually lost in sambo to Ron Tripp (his brother Mark Tripp was active online on AOL).

Kimo, with a high-school wrestling background, a nice strength/size advantage, and a little second-hand BJJ training maybe (rumor is he had a few lessons with a guy who trained with Rickson) took Royce to the limits, but didn't land any hard shots. He had one big GnP punch that didn't land because little Royce pulled his hair. (What honorable, manly fighters those Gracies are!)

Hughes had taken more damage from much more evolved MMA fighters and years of high-level wrestling than Joyce had by that point. Deal with it.
 
DrRodentia said:
Matt didn't tap him though, he did take him down and smash him out.
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Right. I thought Hughes did have a near sub at one point but Royce didn't tap...or if he did the ref didn't see it? Either way, I think Matt probably could've tapped him, but again, why bother when there are easier ways to win? It would be like Khamzat standing an entire fight with Izzy just to prove something.
 
How good was Matt Hughes as a grappler really?

He was up there with the very best and there wasn't a player in the Toronto dressing room that felt otherwise.

And George Armstrong, the Leafs all time leader in games played, summed up Hughes in the following way: the reason Matt is so good, is because he gives so much effort. In his mind, he's never beaten by a forward, and he never quits.

He was the most talented player to ever wear the Toronto Maple Leafs uniform.
 
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Top 2 MMA grappler at welterweight, second only to Georges. He was very strong, had vicious GNP and a dangerous submission game. I don't agree with your ranking but I'd put Hughes in the A+ tier honestly.
  • Submitted GSP via armbar
  • TKO'd BJ Penn via GNP in crucifix
  • TKO'd Royce Gracie via GNP from back mount
  • TKO'd Newton via GNP in crucifix (fight 2)
  • Dominated Sherk to a decision via wrestlefuck
  • Submitted Frank Trigg via RNC twice
Four of those guys being former UFC champions, two of of those guys are also all time greats.
 
DanDragon Machi said:
If Maia, Jacare and Werdum were A+ would be to able take every wrestler down
I've seen Maia's grappling being canceled many times for wreslters
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Maia at WW was taking mfs down with ease, it's a shame he was too old.

And we talking grappling in general.
 
Gamer2k4 said:
To strikes, maybe. If memory serves, Hughes went for the armbar, then gave it up when he realized Royce would let it break before tapping.
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Right, so Matt was being merciful. He dominated the grappling and finished Royce either way.
 
Overboostin said:
How many of those wrestlers took Maia took down and outgrappled him? Just because someone has the ability to effectively defend takedowns doesn't automatically make them a better grappler.
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They could take Maia down at the end of rounds to score if they wanted but why they would to do this if they were comfortably beating him at the foot?
 
ThePimblettEra said:
Most of these A+ grapplers haven't actually beaten any other elite grapplers in MMA.

And lol we're putting essentially unproven (relatively speaking) fighters above the likes of GSP in terms of grappling ability?
Lol.
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Which grapplers beaten any other elite grapplers in MMA?

Jones beaten Cormier, Islam beaten Oliveira and Chimaev beaten Usman
 
Westbrick said:
Probably A.

Maia, Shields, Jacare, Werdum, those are A+ just like GSP and Jones, are you from Russia?
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I liked how he created classes, but i think its need alot more work, how do you even class them? By diffrent submissions, control time, takedowns, overall effeciency and consistency?
 
BJ stuffed Hughes with ease, he was a level below GSP, who should be A+ in your list btw
 
DanDragon Machi said:
Which grapplers beaten any other elite grapplers in MMA?

Jones beaten Cormier, Islam beaten Oliveira and Chimaev beaten Usman
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GSP beat Hughes twice, BJ Penn twice, Shields, Koscheck twice, Fitch. All are high level grapplers.
 
lol

Maia and GSP are easily A+.

GSP, in his prime, has the best timing for takedown and could takedown from everywhere. He didn´t needed the wall to be able to finish his takedowns.

Maia is easily A+ too. He has not the A+ takedown, but this is a part of grappling, not all of it. Even so, he was able to put on the floor many wrestlers.
 
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