How good are the Diaz brothers?

[Chomsky Honk]

Both were really talented and great fighters for most of their careers

Nick was at a really high level from the Gomi win until he got fucked over with the drug test stuff

Nate wasn't as good as Nick but that time period where he was beating MJ and Conor was quite impressive.

As others have mentioned they had some incredible strengths but also very exploitable weaknesses and they also seemed extremely reluctant to adjusting their gameplans when their opponents were starting to figure them out.

 

[mkt]

Well, it seems that for some people, if you are not long time champion material you are relegated to gatekeeper status....

Gatekeeper isn't an insult, either. You're basically the last challenge before someone gets a title shot. Notice how Nate beat some guys (like MJ) who were probably getting close to a title fight. Cerrone was similar, and both Nate and Cerrone did get one title shot themselves at LW. And like I said, I think Nick and Nate were somewhere between gatekeeper and elite (say, Top 3 to 5 in the division) in their primes.

 

[pankrat]

Gatekeeper isn't an insult, either. You're basically the last challenge before someone gets a title shot. .

Insult or not that's not a gatekeeper, mate. By your definition, GSP is the only WW of his generation above the gatekeeper level, which is absurd. More so when Nick himself DID fight for a UFC tittle, and actually became champ in any other org he fought in.
Gatekeeper is a term used for fighters who keep the gate of contendership, not championship. There can only be one champion.

When Dana White tried to justify the Yushin Okami cut despite being top10 ranked by saying "he became a gatekeeper", he didnt mean that Okami was not champion material anymore (he never was), but that he wasnt a legit contender anymore. Which is very different.

You could say Nick was a gatekeeper in his initial UFC run when he was 21-22 years old but a win over prime Nick Diaz would get you a tittle shot if it was in UFC (even by controversial decision, ask Condit) and a belt if it was anywhere outside UFC. That's not a gateeeker. That's a legitimate contender, period.

Only in sherdog you see people questioning if Nick Diaz was ever elite. Im 100% sure that if you ask to every single one of GSP WW tittle challengers if Nick Diaz was elite, every single of them answers he absolutely was and that it's silly to even put a question mark on it

 

[NotoriousEagleCucuy]

Greatest entertainers and blood-sporters of all time

 

[Sweater of AV]

Turning natural born killers into born again runners for 20 years.

 

[Poatan Power]

Nick def better than Nate.

Nick and Nate's skillset focus was very 2001-2005 or maybe 2007 high level. Carrying that skillset into the next generation didn't age well because TDD and wrestling in general became so important to be the elite of the elite. It's why Jake Shields was from their camp and did as good or better than them -- same level BJJ but better wrestling with Ben Askren level hands.

Cesar making a boxer/BJJ style fighter was always the dream of every BJJ enthusiast. The grim reality is that takedown defense is a lot harder than submission defense in general, and sweeps / reversals are harder to hit than takedowns.

Even with great TDD, BJ Penn didn't last forever with a similar approach to training focus.

 

[pankrat]

Nick def better than Nate.

Nick and Nate's skillset focus was very 2001-2005 or maybe 2007 high level. Carrying that skillset into the next generation didn't age well because TDD and wrestling in general became so important to be the elite of the elite. It's why Jake Shields was from their camp and did as good or better than them -- same level BJJ but better wrestling with Ben Askren level hands.

Cesar making a boxer/BJJ style fighter was always the dream of every BJJ enthusiast. The grim reality is that takedown defense is a lot harder than submission defense in general, and sweeps / reversals are harder to hit than takedowns.

Even with great TDD, BJ Penn didn't last forever with a similar approach to training focus.

Cool story.
But since 2005, Nick Diaz didnt lose a single fight by getting taken down other than to GSP. He lost some fights getting pick apart (Condit, Silva) and close decs in what were rather slugfests (Sherk, Riggs), but not being outwrestled.
So it rather sounds like you are trying to fit a prejudice or preconcieved narrative.

 

[Poirierfan]

How good were the Diaz brothers? Are they considered elite fighters in your eyes? Who would win in a fight between them?

Both were very good, Nick was the Strikeforce champ as well, you got to be good.

 

[Poirierfan]

High level for gatekeepers but they brought the fight every time.

The Diaz Bros are icons.

I wouldn't call Nick a gatekeeper, he's was the best in Strikeforce at one point and had his prime years stripped away. Actually, neither were gatekeepers when In their primes imo.

 

[StonedLemur]

How good were the Diaz brothers? Are they considered elite fighters in your eyes? Who would win in a fight between them?

They were better than people give them credit for, Nick being the better of the 2.

 

[mkt]

Cool story.
But since 2005, Nick Diaz didnt lose a single fight by getting taken down other than to GSP. He lost some fights getting pick apart (Condit, Silva) and close decs in what were rather slugfests (Sherk, Riggs), but not being outwrestled.
So it rather sounds like you are trying to fit a prejudice or preconcieved narrative.

Yes, and that's largely because Nick was in Strikeforce for most of that time and didn't fight competent wrestlers. Diego Sanchez and Karo outgrappled him in the UFC. Had Nick stuck around and maybe moved up to WW, he'd have faced at least some guys like Fitch, Koscheck, Pierce, Rick Story, etc. Maybe Nick gets a submission against some of them--or they'd be dumb enough to stand the whole time--but most likely he'd have more losses to wrestlers. Instead he got fed a steady diet of Cyborg, Scott Smith, KJ Noons, Paul Daley, etc. in Strikeforce.

 

[HunterAcosta]

Bout tree fiddy.

 

[mkt]

Both were very good, Nick was the Strikeforce champ as well, you got to be good.

Eh, but Paul Daley was the only real challenge he had there...and Daley rocked him. It was a great fight, though. But the WW competition was MUCH tougher in the UFC at the time. Koscheck beat Daley via wrsetling in the UFC. I'm quite sure he, Fitch and some others could've ruled Strikeforce the way Nick did. Daley was the only real challenge. Sakurai was past his prime when he fought Nick there.

 

[pankrat]

Yes, and that's largely because Nick was in Strikeforce for most of that time and didn't fight competent wrestlers. Diego Sanchez and Karo outgrappled him in the UFC. Had Nick stuck around and maybe moved up to WW, he'd have faced at least some guys like Fitch, Koscheck, Pierce, Rick Story, etc. Maybe Nick gets a submission against some of them--or they'd be dumb enough to stand the whole time--but most likely he'd have more losses to wrestlers. Instead he got fed a steady diet of Cyborg, Scott Smith, KJ Noons, Paul Daley, etc. in Strikeforce.

Or maybe they dont get to do much in clinch/ground positions, or even take more hits/get themselves in more trouble in those spots, while getting pick apart in the feet.
Some pretend is easy to just hold down Nick Diaz in his prime. I dont agree and there is nothing to support that's the case other than referencing fights when he was 21 years old or his fight with the WW GOAT.

Either way, Nick Diaz skil set was certainly elite for his era. Pretend to deny that around the presumption that he would lose to any competent wrestler, as some sherbros around here pretend, is unfair, uneducated and just silly

 

[pankrat]

Eh, but Paul Daley was the only real challenge he had there...and Daley rocked him. It was a great fight, though. But the WW competition was MUCH tougher in the UFC at the time. Koscheck beat Daley via wrsetling in the UFC. I'm quite sure he, Fitch and some others could've ruled Strikeforce the way Nick did. Daley was the only real challenge. Sakurai was past his prime when he fought Nick there.

A decision win over Paul Daley gave Koscheck his UFC tittle shot. Let me guess. It placed him above gatekeeper status.

An emphatic finish over the same opponent...meh

 

[Poatan Power]

Cool story.
But since 2005, Nick Diaz didnt lose a single fight by getting taken down other than to GSP. He lost some fights getting pick apart (Condit, Silva) and close decs in what were rather slugfests (Sherk, Riggs), but not being outwrestled.
So it rather sounds like you are trying to fit a prejudice or preconcieved narrative.

Umm... I live in Lodi, CA and have trained at their academies, they're both awesome. I don't have any prejudice against them I love the guys and I'm a huge fan. Still have a lot of good friends that train in the CG system and NDA including several pro fighters and they worship the ground Nick and Nate walk on lol.

You can revise history all you'd like but Nick didn't get outwrestled because he didn't fight wrestlers for a very long time. He matched up very wisely to put on exciting fights that didn't involve laying and praying. Nick didn't adjust his training, he adjusted his matchmaking. KJ Noons? Scott Smith? Thomas Denny who was 1 for 1 on takedowns on Nick and had dominant position in the fight? Are we going to pretend Corbbrey's judo chops make him a "wrestler?" Frank Shamrock at what age? Sakurai who was 1 for 1 on takedowns? Cyborg? Daley? Penn in 2011?

Meanwhile Nate fought guys like Guida, Stevenson, Maynard, Rory Mac... see the difference in how their match ups went and the result?

Consider this post your Stockton slap pal.

edit: And I do think Nick was at a very elite level for this time period.

 

[mkt]

Either way, Nick Diaz skil set was certainly elite for his era. Pretend to deny that around the presumption that he would lose to any competent wrestler, as some sherbros around here pretend, is unfair, uneducated and just silly

Honestly we'll never know. A post-ACL injury GSP (who wasn't in his best form) beat him, but he was still GSP. Fights against Hendricks, Kos, Fitch, Pierce, even guys like Askren or Palhares would've been intersting, but all we can do is speculate. I'll give Nick credit for being incredibly tough and able to wear people down. I think he could beat some of those guys with a submission or by them wearing down first...but don't think he could beat all of them.

 

[pankrat]

Honestly we'll never know. A post-ACL injury GSP (who wasn't in his best form) beat him, but he was still GSP. Fights against Hendricks, Kos, Fitch, Pierce, even guys like Askren or Palhares would've been intersting, but all we can do is speculate. I'll give Nick credit for being incredibly tough and able to wear people down. I think he could beat some of those guys with a submission or by them wearing down first...but don't think he could beat all of them.

I do think he could lose to some of them in tough decisions.
A wrestler in Kos also got KOed by Alves and even a BJJ guy in Paulo Thiago which I dont it would happen to Nick...

 

[mkt]

I do think he could lose to some of them in tough decisions.
A wrestler in Kos also got KOed by Alves and even a BJJ guy in Paulo Thiago which I dont it would happen to Nick...

True, but I think Kos took the Alves fight with very little notice. Kos also managed to LnP Paul Daley who is arguably more dangerous than Alves, and also beat Rumble (though the eyepoke made that fight a little murky). Fitch beat Alves pretty convincingly twice. So you just never know. Nick didn't typically have the 1-punch power to KO wrestlers....he destroyed guys cumulatively over the rounds...meaning if you ground him enough (like Diego did), he won't have the time to do that.

 

[pankrat]

Umm... I live in Lodi, CA and have trained at their academies, they're both awesome. I don't have any prejudice against them I love the guys and I'm a huge fan. Still have a lot of good friends that train in the CG system and NDA including several pro fighters and they worship the ground Nick and Nate walk on lol.

You can revise history all you'd like but Nick didn't get outwrestled because he didn't fight wrestlers for a very long time. He matched up very wisely to put on exciting fights that didn't involve laying and praying. Nick didn't adjust his training, he adjusted his matchmaking. KJ Noons? Scott Smith? Thomas Denny who was 1 for 1 on takedowns on Nick and had dominant position in the fight? Are we going to pretend Corbbrey's judo chops make him a "wrestler?" Frank Shamrock at what age? Sakurai who was 1 for 1 on takedowns? Cyborg? Daley? Penn in 2011?

Meanwhile Nate fought guys like Guida, Stevenson, Maynard, Rory Mac... see the difference in how their match ups went and the result?

Consider this post your Stockton slap pal.

edit: And I do think Nick was at a very elite level for this time period.

You are revisioning history, not me.
You didnt mention Sherk for some reason btw...oh well. Didnt see that much of LnP on that one.

Nick Diaz could get taken down. It doenst mean any wreslter would be able to consistently control him in the ground and, at the end of the day, outwrestle him for the W which is what you suggest. That's far from certain. He was tricky in clinch and ground with non-stop action. Not the type of one-dimensional striker who can easily be LnP'd.

Shields had much better understanding of range and much better fundamentals at exchanging hands than Ben Askren btw, as clumsy or awkward he could look like.