How do you see Jones vs. DC going?

[fluffball]

DC's ridiculously high flared elbow was really interesting to me. DC watched the Gus fight and saw the rear leg high roundhouse of Jones literally being the difference in winning or losing that fight, so DC just blocked the roundhouse no matter what, thrown or not. Better to eat a punch than a head kick. That was intriguing and I think it help keep the fight pretty close and debatable. DC blocked a LOT of head kicks.

 

[PivotPunch]

Cormier showed that it is possible to close the distance on Jones he did it pretty well there wasn't really a moment where he completely couldn't he did it better than I thought he would. He also defended Jones' knee kicks pretty well.
I think Jones will decide a Gus rematch with his newly found infighting skills he's better than Gustaffson up close.
Rumble would be an interesting fight if he beats Gustaffson

 

[Formless]

If DC's dirty boxing was as punishing as Rampage's old self, the fight would've been over. I didn't see DC do anything special to mitigate range except just push forward with straights Fedor style.

 

[shpboris]

Cormier showed that it is possible to close the distance on Jones he did it pretty well there wasn't really a moment where he completely couldn't

For me it was the biggest surprise of this fight !

 

[a guy]

Cormier showed that it is possible to close the distance on Jones he did it pretty well there wasn't really a moment where he completely couldn't he did it better than I thought he would. He also defended Jones' knee kicks pretty well.
I think Jones will decide a Gus rematch with his newly found infighting skills he's better than Gustaffson up close.
Rumble would be an interesting fight if he beats Gustaffson

Glover already showed that and landed some big shots while doing it. He didn't have a jab and wasn't good on the inside though, so he couldn't stay in that middle range, which is how Jones got inside whenever he wanted.

 

[a guy]

i don't know after seeing dc interview after the fight, i feel even better about what i said prior to the fight; he stated he wasnt used to taking punishment and it took the fight from him and he wasn't aggressive enough, that wasn't by accident.

i didnt see dc able to do the same sh*t he did to mir...barnett...cummins..henderson.. nelson; he wasn't able to take jones down at will, he didnt dominate the striking, he didn't dominate the clinch, he wasn't able to def (all takedowns).

jones did what he always does takes guys down...kick guys at range..clinch guys up and work them over to the body; an pull away late in a competitive fight.

dc looked completely diff from what we had seen of him, he dominated guys; outquicked them out worked them outstruck them outwrestled them, none of that sh*t happened.

dc was in a tough fight and couldn't maintain the pace...activity or pressure he needed to win, EVEN when jones was fighting at the range dc wanted him to fight in; was it close, sure.. But i have seen jones be in close fights, i have seen him have to adjust, i seen him have to turn it on late; never seen dc have to do any of those things, one guy made him do those things..jones.

and for all the times dc landed, i felt jones shots did more damage; an after the fight dc admitted jones had him hurt and it impacted how he fought. He said the knees and body punches cut into his workrate and ability to fight his fight, an that fighting in the clinch wore him down.. I.E. i couldn't dominate in the area i expected to and it had a negative effect on me.


not saying cormier didn't have his moments...he did he couldn't maintain them..and much like gus..he faded in championship rounds..

i felt the fight was competitive throughout...but that doesn't mean daniel won, not in my eyes; he showed he could do what it took to win, he didnt show he could maintain it

At the same time, Jones has never been walked down like that. He's never been forced to fight off the back foot like that. He's never been hit so much on the inside. He's never had someone go head to head with his wrestling and hang there with him (with the exception of one round).

I don't see how Jones looked like his usual self either. At times he was looking at the floor and trying to swing while DC was hitting him. He looked uncomfortable, he looked tired, he looked beat up but he kept fighting.

Both guys were pushed hard as hell. Both were worn down and hurt. Both faded late. It's not like Jones actually won the fifth, he did nothing. Cormier may not have won, but the scorecards do not reflect what I saw happen.

 

[apizur**]

I cant take the regular forum anymore. too many whining and not enough educated opinions.

/f2

 

[shpboris]

Glover already showed that and landed some big shots while doing it. He didn't have a jab and wasn't good on the inside though, so he couldn't stay in that middle range, which is how Jones got inside whenever he wanted.

Still I think Cormier did much better job at closing the distance than Glover.

Glover in a lot of cases would kind of run forward with power punches which got him off balance and hitting the air. But Cormier just walked Jones down with steady pressure using small steps and jab. Which looked MUCH better IMO.

My impression was that in Glover fight it was Jones preference to fight on the inside. In Cormier fight he was forced to do that.

 

[spacetime]

. Cormier may not have won, but the scorecards do not reflect what I saw happen.

Cormier was a broken man in the press conference and close to tears. He's the olympic wrestler yet couldn't outwrestle a college champ. There was no question in his mind who won both morally and technically. I anticipated Jones would strike him endlessly with body shots, elbows, and mix it up as usual. The card for Cormier was supposed to be the wrestling, but it was not to be.

 

[a guy]

Still I think Cormier did much better job at closing the distance than Glover.

Glover in a lot of cases would kind of run forward with power punches which got him off balance and hitting the air. But Cormier just walked Jones down with steady pressure using small steps and jab. Which looked MUCH better IMO.

My impression was that in Glover fight it was Jones preference to fight on the inside. In Cormier fight he was forced to do that.

My point is that Jones couldn't keep Glover out of the pocket with his kicks, so he decided to meet him on the inside. That proved that Jones kicks and reach aren't insurmountable obstacles, so as long as you can hang in the pocket or the clinch you can win. The problem being he's really tough to beat in the clinch. His handfighting was sick, I've never seen it done to that extent in MMA. Nobody has killed Cormier's underhooks like that before. I thought Cormier's best chance was to win in the clinch, and to some extent he did, but that's also where Jones was most dominant in the fourth and also where he did a lot of damage with his knees.

I do agree that Cormier did a very nice job walking him down. Jones has never been pressured like that before. I find it strange that a ton of people are calling it a dominant win for Jones. He had to work hard as hell for it.

 

[a guy]

Cormier was a broken man in the press conference and close to tears. He's the olympic wrestler yet couldn't outwrestle a college champ. There was no question in his mind who won both morally and technically. I anticipated Jones would strike him endlessly with body shots, elbows, and mix it up as usual. The card for Cormier was supposed to be the wrestling, but it was not to be.

You can't take a fighter's opinion of the fight right after it and expect it to tell you much about what went down. I know plenty of guys who have clearly won fights but felt like they lost, and of course guys who got their ass kicked but insisted they dominated right after.

Jones got hit a lot. Jones got hurt, Jones got tired. Cormier didn't outwrestle him, but he still had a ton of success against him. The fight was extremely competitive.

 

[devante]

Glover already showed that and landed some big shots while doing it. He didn't have a jab and wasn't good on the inside though, so he couldn't stay in that middle range, which is how Jones got inside whenever he wanted.

agree one hundred percent, cormier built off or what glover had did; more importantly he did a better job w/it in regards to offense, consistency and control...


daniel did alot of good things and i think it was close....

my point was i have seen jones get tired (it happened v gus and v bonnar), i seen someone get inside on jone (glover) i seen jones get hit w/big shot (evans), i seen jones get taken down (gus), i seen what happens when jones has to work for takedowns (gus), i seen what happens when he has to work to land strikes and gets countered (machida),i seen what happens when he is close to being finished (belfort),
i have seen jones when kicks are taken away (glover), i seen jones have to def multiple takedowns, etc etc

so none of that sh*t surprised me, i knew jones was beatable; but i also knew mentally he would push through, its never as easy as taking one thing away, putting him in a bad spot, landing some shots, or him getting tired.

i wasn't so much concerned w/cormier tech, so much as his ability to stay in it EVEN when its not working as well or the guy he is fighting is coming back at him; would he stand up mentally/physically when he couldnt get takedowns (at will), when he couldn't control a guy completely, when he got taken down, when he took hard shots, when he was in bad positions.

he couldn't ....if cormier would have dropped jones...ragdolled him....due what weidman did to anderson or tj did to renan; that would have shocked me... I saw jones do what noone has EVER done to dc in two weight classes; and i saw cormier doing things he never did...slowing down...showing frustration...getting hurt.. not get take downs...not have complete/dominating control..not breaking guys. An when that happened he couldn't fight through it... imo.

i believe it was close...i just believe that when jones asked the tough questions dc had no real answers.... Technical answers yes..but often time when talking tech/strateg, we forget a fight is still a fight and there is something else to it, in that aspect jones has it all over cormier and that was the diff.

that was my biggest thing..my biggest concern; as much talent as he has, he hasn't been in tough and i had no idea what would happen when it gets tough. Daniel didn't either and he admitted as much, once i started taking punishment it changed things..

Everyone is speaking technique, i get that; but noone addressed the concept/idea of not being tested and how he responded when he was. I didn't know how he would respond; i know he had the coaching and tech and ability, i didn't know if he had it in him when he faced adversity to win THE BIG FIGHT. He never did it in wrestling.. and hasn't done it in mma. He wasn't used to people making him work, and i felt the first time he had to work hard, make adj, take punishment; he wouldn't win, and he didnt...imo


SIDENOTE- just to be clear i am not arguing with you or insinuating you don't know what your talking about; or anyone else to be clear, just stating the reasoning behind my opinion before or after the fight. You know your stuff...i just disagree on this..

 

[shpboris]

I do agree that Cormier did a very nice job walking him down. Jones has never been pressured like that before. I find it strange that a ton of people are calling it a dominant win for Jones. He had to work hard as hell for it.

I have a feeling that Jones mostly tried to control the distance with kicks - if instead of that (or in addition to that) he would use more active jab + movement, he would be more successful.

What do you think ?

 

[a guy]

I don't really agree with the whole Cormier broke narrative though. I think what he said after the fight needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He never gave up, he never stopped trying to fight through it. I think it was an endurance problem more than a mental one, and even then it's not like he got dominated in the last two rounds like people are saying. He got controlled a lot and taken down (but not held down) in the fourth, then was controlled some but also had control and hit a big lift in the fifth. There wasn't any quit in DC.

And of course after the fight he felt dejected. He was exhausted, he just put a ton of effort into something and failed. Plus he didn't have success where he thought he would. But he fought a great fight, pushed to the end, showed championship heart, skill, determination and discipline. I believe in a rematch if he put a little more work into hitting Jones to the body, kicking his legs etc. then he could have a great shot at winning. Jones was tired too, just not as tired. Also Cormier now knows how Jones works in the clinch with all that handfighting. What really lost Cormier the fight was getting positioned against the cage. That's when Jones pulled ahead in round 4 and convinced the judges to give him round 5.

Better cage awareness, less head-hunting, sharpening of his hand fighting skills and Cormier could win.

 

[a guy]

I have a feeling that Jones mostly tried to control the distance with kicks - if instead of that (or in addition to that) he would use more active jab + movement, he would be more successful.

What do you think ?

Yea to some extent, but Cormier was slipping his jab when he tried to throw it. It can't be just a jab, there has to be something he can put behind his jab if he wants to keep guys out of the pocket without clinching them. But his clinch game is so good he doesn't have to worry too much about it.

That's what makes Gus his biggest challenge. Gus doesn't have to work so hard to get inside, plus he can slip Jones jab and set his punches up off his own jab very well. Gus is strong enough to hang with Jones in the clinch, but he doesn't have to get close enough where he'll be forced to spend most of the fight there like Cormier and Glover were. If he works on his kick defense, I really think he beats Jones. He got hit by too many left kicks to the body and those are what cost him the fight, even before the elbow.

 

[shpboris]

Yea to some extent, but Cormier was slipping his jab when he tried to throw it. It can't be just a jab, there has to be something he can put behind his jab if he wants to keep guys out of the pocket without clinching them. But his clinch game is so good he doesn't have to worry too much about it.

That's what makes Gus his biggest challenge. Gus doesn't have to work so hard to get inside, plus he can slip Jones jab and set his punches up off his own jab very well. Gus is strong enough to hang with Jones in the clinch, but he doesn't have to get close enough where he'll be forced to spend most of the fight there like Cormier and Glover were. If he works on his kick defense, I really think he beats Jones. He got hit by too many left kicks to the body and those are what cost him the fight, even before the elbow.

What surprises me about Jones that he is very creative with his kicks and a lot of other techniques. But his jab is not good compared to some MMA fighters in his division and IMO he is hasn't too much veriety on it.

About Gus - yes, that will be very interesting to see. I also think Gus has good chances to win.

 

[PivotPunch]

I have a feeling that Jones mostly tried to control the distance with kicks - if instead of that (or in addition to that) he would use more active jab + movement, he would be more successful.

What do you think ?

Jones doesn't have the jab to outjab Cormier and he doesn't have the lateral movement either. Jones' boxing is improving but still Cormier is a better boxe. And Jones has to this point not learned to mvoe laterally he will stick his hand out and back up but when he did that vs Gus and even yesterday vs the much shorter Cormier he got hit with big shots because both of them were simply much better boxers than anyone he has fought so far.
In that way hsi reahc has even hurt his developement because hegot used to pawing the with lead arm and backing up straight and I'm not sure if he will correct that at this point. it works vs many guys but vs really good offensive punchers like Gus, Cormier and even Glover it didn't work and he needed to do something else

In the second round when everything went really good for Cormier he also landed kicks when Jones was backing up or he immediately returned kicks when Jones threw some and you could see that it bothered Jones.
The problem is that there are few fighters who have the wrestling to kick against Jones.
Rumble could possibly do it. The winner of Gus vs Rumble will be a worthy challenger even though i expect Jones to prevail.

 

[Azam]

Not too surprised at the outcome, even though I wanted DC to win - my mind was telling me Jones would probably take it. Although I have to say it was an extremely competitive fight between the two.

I had Cormier taking round 1, 2 & 3 tbh - although I think the better fighter won. I think Cormier had the right kind of approach, the first two rounds were a real eye opener - I feel as though if Cormier was able to have maintained that intensity, he might have pulled through and won. If anyone watched Jones carefully at the end of each of two first rounds, after he sat back on his stool - there was a bit of concealed panic in his corner and Jones himself looked mentally debilitated, like he couldn't believe what was happening.

Jones wasn't able to establish his range/reach throughout (very few times he established it but wasn't able to maintain it) and in many cases ended up fighting at Cormier's range whether willingly or because of Cormier's constant pressure. Jones managed to really mix up his shots well and those elbows/takedown defence was on point - although I'd say that his kicking game went out of the window, with the exception of 1 or 2 good knees/body kicks and the occasional oblique kick - much of it was sloppy or parried by Cormier.

I think what turned the tide was Cormier gas tank - he simply ran out of energy after the third round, very little output striking wise thereon and didn't even have enough left in him to defend the subsequent takedowns. He looked very exhausted - I honestly didn't realise his cardio was as bad as that - I mean after the third round his corner had to repeatedly tell him to pick his head up & wake up.

I think that Cormier's lack of energy is what helped Jones to re-establish control for the rest of the fight and led him on course to the UD - tbh I was expecting a split decision, it was much closer than people thought, don't think that was a UD at all.

It's a shame because I think if Cormier had a better gas tank/cardio - he might have actually pulled through and won, in fact if he had maintained the intensity/output of the early rounds - I'm pretty confident he could have done it.

But I think this along with the Gustafson fight showed a very vulnerable side of Jones - there were times in there he looked very vulnerable - I think it might only be a matter of time till we see him lose that belt for the first time.





On another note - did anyone watch Horiguchi's fight?

That fight was technical karate at it's finest in MMA (excluding Machida) - very few technical karateka of that calibre/ability in MMA atm. Everything about his stand-up screamed karate - the beautifully timed kizami zuki which he landed quite a few times was like a piston, the kizami/gyaku tsuki combo was on point as well. Definitely going to do a write up on that dude.

 

[a guy]

Not too surprised at the outcome, even though I wanted DC to win - my mind was telling me Jones would probably take it. Although I have to say it was an extremely competitive fight between the two.

I had Cormier taking round 1, 2 & 3 tbh - although I think the better fighter won. I think Cormier had the right kind of approach, the first two rounds were a real eye opener - I feel as though if Cormier was able to have maintained that intensity, he might have pulled through and won. If anyone watched Jones carefully at the end of each of two first rounds, after he sat back on his stool - there was a bit of concealed panic in his corner and Jones himself looked mentally debilitated, like he couldn't believe what was happening.

Jones wasn't able to establish his range/reach throughout (very few times he established it but wasn't able to maintain it) and in many cases ended up fighting at Cormier's range whether willingly or because of Cormier's constant pressure. Jones managed to really mix up his shots well and those elbows/takedown defence was on point - although I'd say that his kicking game went out of the window, with the exception of 1 or 2 good knees/body kicks and the occasional oblique kick - much of it was sloppy or parried by Cormier.

I think what turned the tide was Cormier gas tank - he simply ran out of energy after the third round, very little output striking wise thereon and didn't even have enough left in him to defend the subsequent takedowns. He looked very exhausted - I honestly didn't realise his cardio was as bad as that - I mean after the third round his corner had to repeatedly tell him to pick his head up & wake up.

I think that Cormier's lack of energy is what helped Jones to re-establish control for the rest of the fight and led him on course to the UD - tbh I was expecting a split decision, it was much closer than people thought, don't think that was a UD at all.

It's a shame because I think if Cormier had a better gas tank/cardio - he might have actually pulled through and won, in fact if he had maintained the intensity/output of the early rounds - I'm pretty confident he could have done it.

But I think this along with the Gustafson fight showed a very vulnerable side of Jones - there were times in there he looked very vulnerable - I think it might only be a matter of time till we see him lose that belt for the first time.





On another note - did anyone watch Horiguchi's fight?

That fight was technical karate at it's finest in MMA (excluding Machida) - very few technical karateka of that calibre/ability in MMA atm. Everything about his stand-up screamed karate - the beautifully timed kizami zuki which he landed quite a few times was like a piston, the kizami/gyaku tsuki combo was on point as well. Definitely going to do a write up on that dude.

Great post, agree with everything.

 

[shpboris]

Jones doesn't have the jab to outjab Cormier and he doesn't have the lateral movement either. Jones' boxing is improving but still Cormier is a better boxe. And Jones has to this point not learned to mvoe laterally he will stick his hand out and back up but when he did that vs Gus and even yesterday vs the much shorter Cormier he got hit with big shots because both of them were simply much better boxers than anyone he has fought so far.

Probably that is correct - it is not that Jones haven't selected the right tools for the job. He just doesn't have those tools.

I still wonder why. He is tall, fast and athletic guy. Has a very good coordination. Logically, I would expect that he will advance very well in those areas.