How come Americans are not in same level as europeans in kickboxing?

Discussion in 'Muay Thai and Kickboxing' started by Yrat, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. Yrat

    Yrat Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    82
    I can not remember one american kickboxer who did well in K-1 back in the days or Glory

    The best kickboxers in heavyweight are from Netherlands, Ukraine, France Russia Belarus etc


    Is it because eastern martial arts are not that big in U. S as I think?
     
  2. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,762
    Likes Received:
    2,442
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    America's not great at boxing anymore either. American's in fairness though were pretty good at the full contact kickboxing (no low kicks) back in the day - but they never really got going in K-1 rules.
     
  3. tru3f4n

    tru3f4n Red Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    7,990
    Likes Received:
    5,418
    WTF are you talking about? I'd understand if you specified HW Boxing but you just said "Boxing" so I guess guys like Terence Crawford, Errol Spence Jr, and Mikey Garcia are just run of the mill boxers to you? As for K-1 and American HWs the Kickboxing fad had already started to die down by the time K-1 started to pick up so we was left with guys like Rick Roufus and Duke Roufus moving over to that style and not being able to make it to the top. Then you had fighters like Carter Williams and Dewey Cooper who just never lived up to their potential. Finally we were left with the American slots being filled with freakshow fighters like Sapp and Mighty Mo. I'm sure it's due to the same reason we aren't seeing any really good Americans playing Soccer its not something that too much ppl care about here.
     
    Torrid, Reyesnuthugr and CaulderBorn like this.
  4. IndyCovaHart

    IndyCovaHart Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2003
    Messages:
    19,541
    Likes Received:
    17,350
    Carter Williams... what a waste of talent.
     
    andyjeezy likes this.
  5. Kanka

    Kanka Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,636
    Likes Received:
    1,877
    You could argue that the amount of non american top boxers has increased but i’ve gotten the impression most of them train in the US?
     
  6. Kanka

    Kanka Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,636
    Likes Received:
    1,877
    US is a big country, in total there are a lot of people training in muay thai/kickboxing gyms. I think there is a lack of good trainers though since those sports are quite new over there. I always see videos of ”trainers” tin the US who own a gym giving advice but 90% of the time the advice is flawed. The good gyms are few and far between

    France, sweden, uk, spain, italy and some countries in eastern europe probably each have less practitioners per country than the US, but there are more good gyms and good trainers.

    I guess all the good trainers and talents go to mma aswell
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
    Mafanofe, Tayski and SuperLuigi like this.
  7. SuperLuigi

    SuperLuigi Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Location:
    The Mushroom Kingdom
    Boxing has been growing in the UK too. A few years ago they had the most world titles of any country(usually America does). Also you see more boxers from Africa and SEA reaching the world level than in the past. Ive never heard that most of them train in America. Also pro boxing was banned by the soviet union so now we have powerhouse countries like Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan emerging.

    To answer the OP: America was historically less exposed to low kicks(which Europe and Japan got from MT and Kyokushin), so when K-1 was getting big they didn't have a star to grow popularity.
     
    ChrisCross and Tayski like this.
  8. AndyHugMercury

    AndyHugMercury White Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    183
    Some Americans competed in K1 like Maurice Smith, Duane Ludwig who were also MMA and UFC fighters but only US regional champs. The structured school wrestling programs breeds a lot more MMA fighters than kickboxers. Kickboxing is like soccer in US something kids and soccer moms do for exercise but it's not a popular sport. I'd say it's even less popular than hockey, motocross, snowboarding, or any other extreme sports. Boxing and MMA are the only combat sports that's heavily promoted and outside of a young niche demographic still aren't mainstream for the most part. Americans just care about American football NFL and basketball NBA sometimes and just because they represent their state or city and casual sport fans don't care about anything else.
     
  9. MadSquabbles500

    MadSquabbles500 Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    27,332
    Likes Received:
    11,670
    Location:
    New Jersey now Queens
    boxing is not exactly a popular participation sport here in the US either. But the ones that do take it serious, have a system within they can move up, and become real professional. There is no homegrown KB promotion for KBers to follow through with. A lot of Americans do KB at an MA place for a hobby, and if want to go pro, do so in MMA since we have UFC.

    We have a number of Canadien, and Murkan MMA fighers with "KB" background like Sam Stout, Uriah Hall, Donald Cerrone etc, etc. But I dont think they ever fought in Thailand, Japan, or big KB promotion.
     
    Badr Hari likes this.
  10. Queen B

    Queen B Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2014
    Messages:
    13,598
    Likes Received:
    8,355
    The best American Muay Thai fighter was trained by Steve Mazzagatti
     
  11. jtwarwagon4life

    jtwarwagon4life Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,398
    Likes Received:
    913
    It's not popular in the US. It was in 70's and 80's and you had alot of American promotions and fighters, but it lost steam in late 80-early 90's and never recovered.

    Now there are very few American based promotions and fighters. Most of the people who are serious about it only do it as part of their MMA training and have no ambitions of becoming pro kickboxers. If tommorow MMA was banned worldwide, then you'd see alot of American MMA fighters having success in kickboxing or boxing or pro grappling or whatever.

    Contrary to what people here believe soccer is extremely popular in the US. So the US doesn't really have any excuse for failing so badly there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  12. Tayski

    Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Location:
    Sweden
    For a start K-1 style kickboxing only started to pick when MMA came about, so a lot of Americans with interest in combat sport started focusing on MMA instead.

    As many others have said, it's also down to the level of instruction available. Kyokushin and Muay Thai have been a lot more available in Europe than in the US with great level of instruction, and that's pretty much where K-1 style Kickboxing comes from.
     
  13. Snubnoze707

    Snubnoze707 High Level

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    17,910
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    The countries that do well all have big competitive structures to build fighters in this sport specifically. This doesn't exist in the US. Most guys that give Kickboxing a shot from here come from different backgrounds like MMA, Muay Thai (also a weak scene) and TMA. For HW there is no talent pool to even build a guy up in, they can never find fights.
     
  14. Monte Moku

    Monte Moku Lurking, mainly

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2017
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    193
    Location:
    Other World
    A ton of reasons:

    A different style of Karate already took hold here, MMA is the most popular combat sport, Boxing already has a long history here, US Wrestling pushes many who are interested in combat sports to grappling instead of striking, lack of high level trainers, not much room in the market here, historical lack of exposure to the ruleset, the fragmented fanbase(s) of Kickboxing inhibiting growth, confusion between rulesets from newcomers/casuals, a long history that lacks American presence so many Americans don't think the competitors are high level, perceived lack of skill from Kickboxers by the casual combat sports fanbase, no proper infrastructure to grow the sport, corruption and greed, etc. etc. etc.
     
  15. Tayski

    Tayski Stand-up Fighting

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    3,189
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Location:
    Sweden
    I mean it seems that even in Europe Muay Thai and Karate are a lot more popular than Kickboxing, at least K-1 style Kickboxing that is. From experience living in Paris, London and Stockholm, they all have stacks of Muay Thai gyms and Karate dojos including Kyokushin, but finding good K-1 style Kickboxing gyms is rather rare, usually they're just MT gyms that also prepare fighters for K-1 rule fights. Unless of course you're in the Netherlands or maybe Eastern Europe.
     
    Gitanos and ChrisCross like this.
  16. Julius_Caesar

    Julius_Caesar Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    Lack of interest.

    Imagine some rich American decided to copy Chatri Sityodtong by bringing over a load of Thai MuayThai trainers to the US, split them up so its 3 trainers per gym for several gyms and place those gyms in Rough neighborhoods around America. Run down looking gyms like Kiatmoo9 before Yokkao hooked them up. Then he had those gyms compete with each other every week and even created his own amateur ranking system from these competitions. Talented fighters will come and go but some will stay. Once they're experienced enough they'll turn pro. The ones who stand out will hopefully sign to major promotions like Glory or Onefc. All of the sudden you have several Americans ranking high in these promotions and naturally more Americans will start tuning in to kickboxing which would also mean more Americans training at the gyms their idol is from.

    Seems like a lot of effort for a sport that doesn't pay well but guarantee it would work. This is what happens a lot of the time in Boxing. A lot of the top American boxers started off as kids in a rough neighborhood who started amateur boxing.
     
  17. Kanka

    Kanka Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,636
    Likes Received:
    1,877
    Just curious has Evolve MMA produced any good muay thai fighter from scratch?
     
  18. Snubnoze707

    Snubnoze707 High Level

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    17,910
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    What good is training if there is essentially ZERO Amature and Pro Kickboxing scenes in the US? What you mapped out would just give MMA guys better "striking training".

    Training is probably the least of issues here. Fighters get better from actual fighting. That's why all the Americans that go into Glory have less than 10 fights to their name and ultimately fail while their Euro counterparts have upwards of 100 fights.
     
  19. Snubnoze707

    Snubnoze707 High Level

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    17,910
    Likes Received:
    4,465
    Seems like it's a bunch of retired Thais fighting under their banner...
     
  20. Julius_Caesar

    Julius_Caesar Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    1,568
    That's the point of creating several gyms. The gyms would compete among themselves until they turn pro. You just have to be consistent with interclub competitions.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.