How can you tell if a MMA gym is a McDojo?

[nomilkforsanta]

Let's be honest, nobody sees these types of ads anymore. At least not here in Cali.

They are all over the sf Bay Area.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

Master Toddy?

Do you know why people compare "master" k to "master" toddy?

 

[Zoti]

Never heard any Thai speak of rankings like that. Sounds fishy to me.

Most Thai that I have met and trained under and who have fought in Thailand don't even call themselves Kru or Ajarn.

 

[TriangleMan]

I should have said SoCal, Cali's huge, it was my bad to generalize that ridiculously.

Master Toddy's is for sure a McDojo. When you have a "Kru" who got his status in 3-4 years, it's COMPLETELY bullshit. Master Toddy is full of crap. Can't stand his marketing methods. It's unethical business.

 

[hapkibjj]

What are TMAs?

F'real brah? Too Much Ass... jk (although a female can never have too much ass IMO), but seriously you don't know what TMA is?

 

[ssullivan80]

Most Thai that I have met and trained under and who have fought in Thailand don't even call themselves Kru or Ajarn.

Truth, "Kru" has really been adopted and popularized as a westernized term/certification. In Thai language, Kru simply means "teacher". In fact, I do believe there is actually an online Kru certification course......... serious...........

IMO, the only ranking system that exists in westernized versions of martial arts that holds any credence is in BJJ. However, that was far more true 10years ago and the growing popularity of the sport and number of gyms has given rise to a whole lot more BB Bjj practitioners and it's becoming progressively more and more watered down and that trend is certain to continue as BJJ continues to grow exponentially in popularity. In the end it's a business for most, supply and demand! As demand grows, supply has to meet those demands to remain profitable. Hence, you can now earn a "Gracie" blue belt online from home.........

 

[DivineComedy]

F'real brah? Too Much Ass... jk (although a female can never have too much ass IMO), but seriously you don't know what TMA is?

You need to define specifically what traditional is. What traditions? Every art has "traditions", or if you base it on age, there are thousands of old martial arts.

 

[hapkibjj]

You need to define specifically what traditional is. What traditions? Every art has "traditions", or if you base it on age, there are thousands of old martial arts.

Yea that's a good point and I guess everyone is going to have their own definition of what 'Traditional Martial Arts' is...

To reply to brutal boy or whatever his tag name is... I would define (or more appropriately 'categorize') them as the martial arts that have been around for a long time both in tradition and they way they are still practiced today with little change. some examples may include: TKD, Hapkido, various forms of Karate, Kung fu, wing chun, etc. etc. (don't get mad if I left any out- people easily get offended on this site if you haven't noticed). these arts are grouped IMO together as TMAs and apart from the combat sports arts like (wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu, boxing, muay thai, submission wrestling/grappling etc) Mostly bc these arts are geared more towards sport/competition.

Some people may say well isn't Judo or Jiu Jitsu TMAs. Well Judo I guess you could make a case for. Although many aspects of Judo aren't typically practiced as much anymore so I'd have to argue you that it is more appropriately categorized as sport/combat MA. My reasoning is the ground aspect (Ne-Waza? please correct if I'm wrong I'm not a judoka) was phased-out to some degree due to how Judo competitions evolved with respect to point scoring systems. So you typically don't see a pure Judo class focus much on the ground aspect of things anymore.

 

[DivineComedy]

Yea that's a good point and I guess everyone is going to have their own definition of what 'Traditional Martial Arts' is...

To reply to brutal boy or whatever his tag name is... I would define (or more appropriately 'categorize') them as the martial arts that have been around for a long time both in tradition and they way they are still practiced today with little change. some examples may include: TKD, Hapkido, various forms of Karate, Kung fu, wing chun, etc. etc. (don't get mad if I left any out- people easily get offended on this site if you haven't noticed). these arts are grouped IMO together as TMAs and apart from the combat sports arts like (wrestling, judo, jiu jitsu, boxing, muay thai, submission wrestling/grappling etc) Mostly bc these arts are geared more towards sport/competition.

Some people may say well isn't Judo or Jiu Jitsu TMAs. Well Judo I guess you could make a case for. Although many aspects of Judo aren't typically practiced as much anymore so I'd have to argue you that it is more appropriately categorized as sport/combat MA. My reasoning is the ground aspect (Ne-Waza? please correct if I'm wrong I'm not a judoka) was phased-out to some degree due to how Judo competitions evolved with respect to point scoring systems. So you typically don't see a pure Judo class focus much on the ground aspect of things anymore.

What. Modern TKD focuses on specific technique and application for their specific TKD competition/ Olympics and competition "evolved" with respect to how points are scored just like Judo. You can say that about most Karate styles that also participate in sport aspect for points, i.e. famously Shotokan. These styles phase out the basic grappling inherent to the style to conform into the rulesets that they compete in. Actually, all the styles you listed have competitions available. Wing Chun has the Ip Man Cup. So on and so forth.

In fact, Boxing has stayed pretty consistent through the years. There are stylistic differences in regards to era and the coaches alive at the time, but heavy bag's been there, and so have the techniques, (Jab, Cross, uppercut, hook), shadowboxing and Boxing, too has conformed to the rules set for it (banned rabbit punch).

Most people really started using the word TMA with the introduction of MMA to the masses to separate the two entities, but ironically they are not mutually exclusive. Most used it as a derogatory term to east asian martial arts like you listed above. ^ But most can't even fully explain what they think a traditional martial art is. Heard it being bashed and continue using it. Same as the word "tool" I don't know what it means when someone describes another as a "tool" because it seems to apply in so many cases, that the very definition is diluted like TMA.

Also, groundwork = newaza.

Some food for thought.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

What. Modern TKD focuses on specific technique and application for their specific TKD competition/ Olympics and competition "evolved" with respect to how points are scored just like Judo. You can say that about most Karate styles that also participate in sport aspect for points, i.e. famously Shotokan. These styles phase out the basic grappling inherent to the style to conform into the rulesets that they compete in. Actually, all the styles you listed have competitions available. Wing Chun has the Ip Man Cup. So on and so forth.

In fact, Boxing has stayed pretty consistent through the years. There are stylistic differences in regards to era and the coaches alive at the time, but heavy bag's been there, and so have the techniques, (Jab, Cross, uppercut, hook), shadowboxing and Boxing, too has conformed to the rules set for it (banned rabbit punch).

Most people really started using the word TMA with the introduction of MMA to the masses to separate the two entities, but ironically they are not mutually exclusive. Most used it as a derogatory term to east asian martial arts like you listed above. ^ But most can't even fully explain what they think a traditional martial art is. Heard it being bashed and continue using it. Same as the word "tool" I don't know what it means when someone describes another as a "tool" because it seems to apply in so many cases, that the very definition is diluted like TMA.

Also, groundwork = newaza.

Some food for thought.

Even the term MMA has changed in the past ten years, it now means a sport and the legal techniques in that sport. I remember when it was equal to NHB and vale tudo.

 

[nomilkforsanta]

I should have said SoCal, Cali's huge, it was my bad to generalize that ridiculously.

Master Toddy's is for sure a McDojo. When you have a "Kru" who got his status in 3-4 years, it's COMPLETELY bullshit. Master Toddy is full of crap. Can't stand his marketing methods. It's unethical business.

http://www.mastertoddy.com/instructor-certificate/kru-certification-course/

 

[DivineComedy]

Even the term MMA has changed in the past ten years, it now means a sport and the legal techniques in that sport. I remember when it was equal to NHB and vale tudo.

Yes, this is true as well.

 

[394Ever]

I have seen a growing trend of Karate/TKD schools hire a blue belt from another school to come teach a BJJ class. Then they call themselves a 'mixed martial arts' school when the bjj blue belt is the only 'instructor' with remotely useful techniques. They also overcharge and make u sign up for karate/TKD in addition to bjj.

I've seen a shit load of these schools in my area. I think it's a growing business strategy for the McDojos.

 

[Robmasterflex]

LOL, aint that the truth. Well said!

The "students" sometimes forget that at the end of the day running a gym is a business, and hardly an easy one to make a living with. From the perspective of the gym owner, the fighters are more often than not your greatest liability because they are capable of hurting someone. Once you've had to pay the insurance deductible a couple of times because one of your "fighters" decided to put someone "in their place", you really start to see the value in yoga and cardio kickboxing classes!

Then there's the high school kids who want to be the next UFC superstar, and I don't know what these kids parents are feeding them because I never remember high school students being so damn big. Every summer dozens of 15-17yr old, 6ft 200+ pd kids, with full beards and flat bill trucker hats wander in to the gym with all the new gear and their parents credit card, wanting to be the next MMA "bad ass". Of course the gym is glad to take their parents money and all that new gear their gonna sell us for pennies come early September seems like a win-win. Unfortunately the only thing bigger than those damn kids is often their ego. In turn, the gyms senior students/instructors become a huge liability. No way in hell would a savvy gym owner let these beastly 16yr olds spar with the "fighters", who really would love nothing more than to beat the dog shit out of one of them. So you have your "disciplined" and well tenured students or instructors spar with them, relying on their ability to control themselves. But let's be honest, eventually they've just had enough and determine a "ego-check" is in order. At which point 16yr old "Johnny Football's" Mommy and Daddy, (aka Mr and Mrs Attorney) come into the gym irate that their "sweet little boy" is going to lose his college scholarship because your "killing machine" instructor (who's all of 5ft5in and 160pds) decided to assault the poor defenseless kid........ ugh......... all of a sudden that deal on gear don't seem so good and once again your entire summers profit goes to the insurance company defending you against beating up poor children........ Good news, at least your instructor has a new flat bill trucker hat, aka: Summer Trophy!

Sorry, rant done!

^^^^^

This guy knows what he is talking about. I've witnessed that same kid in an mma gym I was trying out, and his gargantuan, 220 pound, 14-year old behemoth was trying to take my head off, and I wasn't sure if I could put him in his place or not because his parents were watching us spar.

I was worried about jail time.

 

[Which Doctor]

I usually challenge the instructors to matches to see if they are worthy of teaching me.

The only true method. And it has to be a fight to the finish if you are the bad guy, or have a really long beard and an evil laugh.

 

[hapkibjj]

What. Modern TKD focuses on specific technique and application for their specific TKD competition/ Olympics and competition "evolved" with respect to how points are scored just like Judo. You can say that about most Karate styles that also participate in sport aspect for points, i.e. famously Shotokan. These styles phase out the basic grappling inherent to the style to conform into the rulesets that they compete in. Actually, all the styles you listed have competitions available. Wing Chun has the Ip Man Cup. So on and so forth.

In fact, Boxing has stayed pretty consistent through the years. There are stylistic differences in regards to era and the coaches alive at the time, but heavy bag's been there, and so have the techniques, (Jab, Cross, uppercut, hook), shadowboxing and Boxing, too has conformed to the rules set for it (banned rabbit punch).

Most people really started using the word TMA with the introduction of MMA to the masses to separate the two entities, but ironically they are not mutually exclusive. Most used it as a derogatory term to east asian martial arts like you listed above. ^ But most can't even fully explain what they think a traditional martial art is. Heard it being bashed and continue using it. Same as the word "tool" I don't know what it means when someone describes another as a "tool" because it seems to apply in so many cases, that the very definition is diluted like TMA.

Also, groundwork = newaza.

Some food for thought.

hell yea man; good points and post. I guess it is really hard to define and the lines are blurred and incredibly grey...

I understand that TKD does have the point/competition, along with forms of karate, and even wing chun like you mentioned. But there are certain places that do teach their styles without competition in mind and their students aren't competing. Obviously there are some were its the opposite- again blurred lines, which I guess is the main point of what we've been talking about.

I was more or less trying to give someone who had no idea what TMA or martial arts something to go off of. Now the more I think about it I realize its almost not worth trying to define as it really isn't going to help anyones understanding of it (assuming they're lacking MA knowledge in the first place).