Social Holocaust of Languages

[Flower2dPeople]

Disagree. You can discuss Locke sipping brandy and wearing your top hat and monocle if you want. Rap is fresh, original, living culture.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Patrick Jane]

This seems to add to the topic:

 

[650lb Sumo]

Listening to rap music is like watching snuff films for whatever language they use(destroy).

Rap music originated in medieval Scottish pubs, claims American professor

Rap music originated in the medieval taverns of Scotland rather than the mean streets of the Bronx and Brooklyn, an American academic has claimed.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Professor Ferenc Szasz

argued that so-called rap battles, where two or more performers trade elaborate insults, derive from the ancient Caledonian art of 'flyting'.

According to the theory, Scottish slave owners took the tradition with them to the United States, where it was adopted and developed by slaves, emerging many years later as rap.

Professor Szasz is convinced there is a clear link between this tradition for settling scores in Scotland and rap battles, which were famously portrayed in Eminem's 2002 movie 8 Mile.



He said: "The Scots have a lengthy tradition of flyting - intense verbal jousting, often laced with vulgarity, that is similar to the dozens that one finds among contemporary inner-city African-American youth. Both cultures accord high marks to satire. The skilled use of satire takes this verbal jousting to its ultimate level - one step short of a fist fight."

The academic, who specialises in American and Scottish culture at the University of New Mexico, made the link in a new study examining the historical context of Robert Burn's work.

The most famous surviving example of flyting comes from a 16th-century piece in which two rival poets hurl increasingly obscene rhyming insults at one another before the Court of King James IV.

Titled the Flyting Of Dunbar And Kennedy, it has been described by academics as 'just over 500 lines of filth'.

Professor Szasz cites an American civil war poem, printed in the New York Vanity Fair magazine on November 9, 1861, as the first recorded example of the battles being used in the United States.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

If an languages holocaust is necessary to not have to read all that wall of text you posted above.. I welcome it.

 

[fungi]

With all due respect, I stopped reading after a couple of paragraphs.
It's not beyond my attention span, but that wall of text about some "globish", was it?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Holocaust in the sense of a gigantic and catastrophic destruction


In Person

English is my first language, but I have reasonable ability in some others. Here's a list of non-English speaking countries I've been to, since learning one of the local languages well enough for basic interactions. Ones I went to when I was small and didn't speak a local language at all is a bit of a different situation, which I shall leave to one side for the time being. Although the phenomenon I'm describing was still wrong then, and had already begun. Countries I just passed through without talking to anyone, or just for a layover have also been left out. I don't go to countries without being able to speak a local language well enough for basic interactions, but passing through/layovers are an exception.

France
Belgium
Netherlands
Germany
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Russia
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
The Ukraine
Quebec (yes, I know this isn't a country)

Here's what happened to me 95% of the time, except in Quebec, for which I give them great respect . In Quebec it only happened a very small minority of the time. Bearing in mind I am White, and this being a few years ago, was fairly young. Being old and/or Nonwhite would change how people react to you in this context.

I move through the land. As soon as I say something, people hear I have a foreign accent and respond in Globish, which is what I call the debased, international version of English. I mean that language isn't English. Someone even told me once "We foreigners don't care any more what you native speakers say, this is our language now." Which is correct in that Globish is their language and not ours, however English is ours and not theirs. The sooner they become mutually unintelligible the better.

Through a lot of experience I've found the best way to respond to this is to flatly say "What?" in the language you spoke in. Don't give them anything in your tone of voice, facial expression, body language or anything else to react to. You have to act like you don't even understand one word of Globish. As far as I know, I never met someone of my ethnic appearance, and my age then, who did not speak Globish or English. However a small minority of people spoke it badly and were embarrassed about that, so when I reacted this way, that's probably what people thought was going on. Indeed some people would begin to condescend to me as though I was stupid. Sometimes people would speak to me in Globish, and I really didn't understand, because they spoke it badly, then they would condescend to me, which was amusing, although of course I gave no sign.

If you give them anything in your reaction to their Globish, they'll stay in Globish. Expressing dismay that they have changed language, asking them to stop etc. will be counterproductive. In case you're new on Earth, and didn't know that's what most 'people' are like. If you stick to flatly saying "What?", mostly I found they would give up after a couple of tries and go back to whatever language. They will often ask you where you're from, what your native language is etc., but they will do it in the local language. Some will refuse to shift from Globish and you just have to walk away. Of course this can be inconvenient, for instance it happened to me once when I was wanting to pick up quite a valuable parcel. And there was only one person on duty. But there you go.

Since I haven't been abroad for a few years, the rate of this working will have gone down. If you're unlucky enough to be identifiable as a (probable) foreigner by your appearance they will just start in Globish. Also, 'people' being the way they are, often they will accept speaking to you in the local language for a while, then try again with Globish. A neverending process, like women and shit tests. Another thing they will do is sprinkle Globish words and phrases into the local language while speaking to you. This also tends to escalate over time, and when it gets too bad, again you just have to bail.

The better you speak a local language, the less this will happen. However the protective effect is weak. Even if you speak a local language much better than the person speaks Globish, they will generally still try to break you into speaking Globish. Of course, speaking a local language better than the person speaks Globish is getting pretty difficult. Especially in the Germanic countries and Finland. If the person is invested in gaining your favour though that does make a significant difference. A girlfriend, or if you're looking to spend a significant sum of money for instance. However, as you might anticipate, once the person has become your girlfriend, or got your money, the incentive is greatly weakened and boom! here comes the Globish.

These individuals would prefer you to respond to their Globish, and answer in English. However they will tend to accept you responding in a local language, as long as you are responding to their Globish. I've never done that, but have seen others do it a lot. They are constantly pressured to drop the local language. You've put a lot of blood in the water by accepting to be half-way linguistically graped, after all.

Being a native speaker of English a lot of people will just want to hang out with you to use you as an English/Globish practice machine. Of course they won't usually tell you that, but will try to trick you into thinking they enjoy your company for its own sake.


Internet

So that covers the in-person angle. When I first went on the internet in around 2000, there were very few second-language speakers in English-language spaces. However there are absolutely loads now. Of course some of them are immigrants to an English-speaking country. But mostly not. Obviously I welcome this as there is nothing I love more than cultural diversity. I love going to a British homebrewing forum to converse with Poles and Norwegians, for instance - great people with a lot to contribute.

Worryingly I have started to notice two developments in the last few months:

When I post in another language, in an online space for that language, as soon as someone suspects it isn't my native language, they start posting at me in Globish. The same as in person. Again, the slightest little detail in otherwise 99% perfect X language is enough. And once they start it's impossible to stop them. Others will see them doing it, and they start doing it too.

Secondly, I keep seeing these comments, posts, social media etc. in other languages, and 'people' are posting memes in English. Quotes and book excerpts in English. Admitting they are forgetting X language expressions or unaware of new ones, because they only read English. Sprinkling the language with English words.

The replacement of X language words with English words is so fast, that the versions of languages I learnt are already archaic. I come with an X language word and almost none of the locals use it, they just use the English word. This is not limited to online.


General

So like most things nowadays, this is getting worse and worse faster and faster. Unless civilisation, technology and so on deteriorate sharply soon, these languages will either disappear, or survive only among a tiny minority of academics and enthusiasts, as a hobby rather than a legitimate means of conveying culture and information, in a few more generations.

So….people respond in broken English when talking to them in their language is what this is about?

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Thats because ppl in Quebec are super fricking annoying and get made fun of the world over bc they act all hoity toity for speaking FRENCH in CANADA, congratulations you speak French no one care
English speakers tolerate foreigners speaking poorly alllll the time without throwing a fit, other language speakers are SUPER insecure that no one cares about their language and love to gatekeep it. Congrats, i dont speak french fluently, I'm trying, you're welcome. Get over yourselves Quebec ppl!

Shut your fucking mouth

 

[650lb Sumo]

So….people respond in broken English when talking to them in their language is what this is about?

That is the first part of what I said, simplified and slightly garbled, yes.

 

[I Am Legion]

Man, I live in NY and near NYC. I speak to people with broken English all the time. I am patient and help when I can. If not, how are they to learn? I find it courageous they try so hard. Language snobs are dicks.

 

[Osculater]

Man, I live in NY and near NYC. I speak to people with broken English all the time. I am patient and help when I can. If not, how are they to learn? I find it courageous they try so hard. Language snobs are dicks.

 

[Bballfan123]

Shut your fucking mouth

"This post was written in English, the language of conquerors. Not in French. No one speak French except dorks."

-Wikipedia

 

[ChessJitsu]

I had a bagel for breakfast. With peanut butter

doesn't sound like the most tasty combination but if you eat a lot of bagels it makes sense to do that sometimes

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

"This post was written in English, the language of conquerors. Not in French. No one speak French except dorks."

-Wikipedia

Conquerors you say? Conqueror comes from French, you know from the time when the French conquered England. As roughly 1/3 of words in the English language. Not that you sound like the type who would know that.

 

[TheNinja]

Some people say English is the hardest laguage to learn, but to me it's the easiest.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Some people say English is the hardest laguage to learn, but to me it's the easiest.

It‘s not really a language. It‘s more like a French-Saxon creole that keeps evolving and was never codified.

 

[mb23100]

Currently in Madrid. People seem to enjoy my struggle Spanish.

 

[650lb Sumo]

Currently in Madrid. People seem to enjoy my struggle Spanish.

I'm delighted to hear that. However if you look up something like 'When I speak Spanish in Spain I am answered in English' you get a lot of hits.

Spoiler

If it’s someone I know, we’ve probably already established which language we’re going to use.If it’s stranger, like in a food/beverage situation, and they’re determined to speak to me not in the language with which I initiated the conversation, they’re going to be sadly disappointed appointed in me. It’s extremely annoying when someone pretends they can’t understand me because internal reasons and they’re determined to showcase their language skills

Politely let them know that you want to practice your Spanish. If they answer in English reply back to them in Spanish. Eventually you will both be speaking Spanglish. It’s a win-win for both. [You'll come across this opinion a lot. Either these people have little or no experience of what they're talking about, or are mugs. Or both. Firstly you have accepted being halfway bullied, and secondly the conversation will not go to Spanglish. The other person will continue to speak only Globish, while pressuring you to speak English.]

It’s so frustrating. When I went to Romania I thought I ‘d be able to practice my Romanian as I don’t have anybody close that speaks it. But, lo and behold, everyone there wanted to practice their English. So we ended in an absurd situation in which I spoke to them in Romanian and they answered in English ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've been living in France for 5 years and am ok in French. When people reply to me in English and I know what I said was 100% correct in French, I continue in French. Sometimes I say, "On peut parler en français, tu sais ?" ("We can speak in French you know?") and they tend to respond, "oh but I like to practice my English". Which is all good and well, but I'm obligated to learn and speak French to live here and they're just trying out a few phrases for shits and giggles.

https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/speaking-spanish-in-spain-267863

Last year my family and I spent two weeks touring Spain. Before leaving we decided to try and acquire some knowledge of the language to use when we were there. We studied as a family for several months. When we got there, and tried to speak Spanish to the natives, they always replied in English. They did not give us a chance to speak Spanish. This was upsetting especially for the children who were so excited about using their knowledge. Also, the Spanish did not seem at all grateful that we took the time and effort to learn their language. I thought that was very rude.

I encountered this situation when speaking French in Geneva when I first arrived (that people would reply in English). I think the situation I encountered is very similar to yours and I suspect that the reasons for the Spaniards' behavior was the same.I think that there were two main reasons that people replied in English. First, some people seemed to want to test out THEIR English. People mentioned this to me on more than one occasion. Secondly, people figured out relatively easily that I was likely a native English speaker and were just trying to be nice or make the conversation flow more smoothly by replying in English. I got around this by continuing to speak in French, and if necessary, to politely laugh, thank them for their patience with my French, and tell them I was trying to improve. Of course, since my experience was in France, not in Spain, one could argue that it's not relevant, but I strongly suspect that the people you encountered in Spain were NOT trying to be rude, or to deprive you of a linguistic experience, but rather, were actually trying to be helpful. [Naïve. They answer in Globish because Globish is the prestige language and they want to linguistically grape you and practise and be prestigious.]



[This might be primarily about the USA.]



I lived in Madrid for a year and a half and my Spanish got pretty good. Even with my accent coming closer to decent Madrileño cadences, wait staff often spoke to me in English…even when my Spanish was better than their English. I think it is a courtesy thing. I recommend Spanish first. It’s just polite.

I think they’ll speak to you in English no matter what. My Spanish is good, my wife’s first language is Spanish, and all we get is English even when we speak in Spanish.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187479-i153-k2965592-Speaking_Spanish-Tenerife_Canary_Islands.html

I often find if I speak Spanish I am answered in English so that we can both practice our language, correcting each other as we go.

What might make people switch to English when I speak to them in Spanish?!!

Hi there folks! A little rant from me..... I phoned Spain this afternoon to book a canoe trip :) and it was fine until the moment I missed something and said ¿cómo? when I got an answer in English. I persisted in Spanish and the person mostly (but not completely GRRR!!) swapped back to...

forum.wordreference.com

Hi there folks!
A little rant from me.....
I phoned Spain this afternoon to book a canoe trip and it was fine until the moment I missed something and said ¿cómo? when I got an answer in English. I persisted in Spanish and the person mostly (but not completely GRRR!!) swapped back to Spanish. I ended up shouting at the phone, as soon as I'd put it down!!

This happened to my mom when we went to Cancun a lot. She would always approach the staff at the resort in Spanish, and 95% of the time, they replied in English. My mom's level of Spanish is actually quite high and her grammar is great, but she didn't learn to speak until her mid-thirties, so her accent is very strong and gives her away immediately.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Holocaust in the sense of a gigantic and catastrophic destruction


In Person

English is my first language, but I have reasonable ability in some others. Here's a list of non-English speaking countries I've been to, since learning one of the local languages well enough for basic interactions. Ones I went to when I was small and didn't speak a local language at all is a bit of a different situation, which I shall leave to one side for the time being. Although the phenomenon I'm describing was still wrong then, and had already begun. Countries I just passed through without talking to anyone, or just for a layover have also been left out. I don't go to countries without being able to speak a local language well enough for basic interactions, but passing through/layovers are an exception.

France
Belgium
Netherlands
Germany
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Russia
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
The Ukraine
Quebec (yes, I know this isn't a country)

Here's what happened to me 95% of the time, except in Quebec, for which I give them great respect . In Quebec it only happened a very small minority of the time. Bearing in mind I am White, and this being a few years ago, was fairly young. Being old and/or Nonwhite would change how people react to you in this context.

I move through the land. As soon as I say something, people hear I have a foreign accent and respond in Globish, which is what I call the debased, international version of English. I mean that language isn't English. Someone even told me once "We foreigners don't care any more what you native speakers say, this is our language now." Which is correct in that Globish is their language and not ours, however English is ours and not theirs. The sooner they become mutually unintelligible the better.

Through a lot of experience I've found the best way to respond to this is to flatly say "What?" in the language you spoke in. Don't give them anything in your tone of voice, facial expression, body language or anything else to react to. You have to act like you don't even understand one word of Globish. As far as I know, I never met someone of my ethnic appearance, and my age then, who did not speak Globish or English. However a small minority of people spoke it badly and were embarrassed about that, so when I reacted this way, that's probably what people thought was going on. Indeed some people would begin to condescend to me as though I was stupid. Sometimes people would speak to me in Globish, and I really didn't understand, because they spoke it badly, then they would condescend to me, which was amusing, although of course I gave no sign.

If you give them anything in your reaction to their Globish, they'll stay in Globish. Expressing dismay that they have changed language, asking them to stop etc. will be counterproductive. In case you're new on Earth, and didn't know that's what most 'people' are like. If you stick to flatly saying "What?", mostly I found they would give up after a couple of tries and go back to whatever language. They will often ask you where you're from, what your native language is etc., but they will do it in the local language. Some will refuse to shift from Globish and you just have to walk away. Of course this can be inconvenient, for instance it happened to me once when I was wanting to pick up quite a valuable parcel. And there was only one person on duty. But there you go.

Since I haven't been abroad for a few years, the rate of this working will have gone down. If you're unlucky enough to be identifiable as a (probable) foreigner by your appearance they will just start in Globish. Also, 'people' being the way they are, often they will accept speaking to you in the local language for a while, then try again with Globish. A neverending process, like women and shit tests. Another thing they will do is sprinkle Globish words and phrases into the local language while speaking to you. This also tends to escalate over time, and when it gets too bad, again you just have to bail.

The better you speak a local language, the less this will happen. However the protective effect is weak. Even if you speak a local language much better than the person speaks Globish, they will generally still try to break you into speaking Globish. Of course, speaking a local language better than the person speaks Globish is getting pretty difficult. Especially in the Germanic countries and Finland. If the person is invested in gaining your favour though that does make a significant difference. A girlfriend, or if you're looking to spend a significant sum of money for instance. However, as you might anticipate, once the person has become your girlfriend, or got your money, the incentive is greatly weakened and boom! here comes the Globish.

These individuals would prefer you to respond to their Globish, and answer in English. However they will tend to accept you responding in a local language, as long as you are responding to their Globish. I've never done that, but have seen others do it a lot. They are constantly pressured to drop the local language. You've put a lot of blood in the water by accepting to be half-way linguistically graped, after all.

Being a native speaker of English a lot of people will just want to hang out with you to use you as an English/Globish practice machine. Of course they won't usually tell you that, but will try to trick you into thinking they enjoy your company for its own sake.


Internet

So that covers the in-person angle. When I first went on the internet in around 2000, there were very few second-language speakers in English-language spaces. However there are absolutely loads now. Of course some of them are immigrants to an English-speaking country. But mostly not. Obviously I welcome this as there is nothing I love more than cultural diversity. I love going to a British homebrewing forum to converse with Poles and Norwegians, for instance - great people with a lot to contribute.

Worryingly I have started to notice two developments in the last few months:

When I post in another language, in an online space for that language, as soon as someone suspects it isn't my native language, they start posting at me in Globish. The same as in person. Again, the slightest little detail in otherwise 99% perfect X language is enough. And once they start it's impossible to stop them. Others will see them doing it, and they start doing it too.

Secondly, I keep seeing these comments, posts, social media etc. in other languages, and 'people' are posting memes in English. Quotes and book excerpts in English. Admitting they are forgetting X language expressions or unaware of new ones, because they only read English. Sprinkling the language with English words.

The replacement of X language words with English words is so fast, that the versions of languages I learnt are already archaic. I come with an X language word and almost none of the locals use it, they just use the English word. This is not limited to online.


General

So like most things nowadays, this is getting worse and worse faster and faster. Unless civilisation, technology and so on deteriorate sharply soon, these languages will either disappear, or survive only among a tiny minority of academics and enthusiasts, as a hobby rather than a legitimate means of conveying culture and information, in a few more generations.

I think it's admirable you've been making a good faith effort to converse in local languages during travels. The world would be a better place if more people did that. But while your intent may be to accommodate locals in their language, you're in essence lamenting them not accommodating YOU and your desire to practice their language, just as an "ugly American" might begrudge foreign locals for not being fluent in English. By default, strangers on the street will speak the common language that gets the point across most expeditiously. i.e. if foreign dude's English is better than your [Finnish], expect him to speak to you in English because ain't nobody got time for that shit if he just wants to answer your question and get on with his day.

But even if your [Finnish] is better than their English, English is more prominent globally. So it's almost certainly more important (to him) for foreign guy to practice English than it is for you to practice your [Finnish]. It's akin to the Prime Directive in Star Trek. Pre-warp civilizations are going to do what they do and you should regard them as such. But once the locale has been exposed to (if not bombarded by) English-language movies, TV shows, culture, etc. (which is everywhere at this point), expect them to get onboard (if indeed that's what they want). Just let them bang bro.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

My main man @Revolver only speaks one language

 

[Plissken]

I'm a Holocaust of languages denier.