Social Holocaust of Languages

[650lb Sumo]

Holocaust in the sense of a gigantic and catastrophic destruction


In Person

English is my first language, but I have reasonable ability in some others. Here's a list of non-English speaking countries I've been to, since learning one of the local languages well enough for basic interactions. Ones I went to when I was small and didn't speak a local language at all is a bit of a different situation, which I shall leave to one side for the time being. Although the phenomenon I'm describing was still wrong then, and had already begun. Countries I just passed through without talking to anyone, or just for a layover have also been left out. I don't go to countries without being able to speak a local language well enough for basic interactions, but passing through/layovers are an exception.

France
Belgium
Netherlands
Germany
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Russia
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
The Ukraine
Quebec (yes, I know this isn't a country)

Here's what happened to me 95% of the time, except in Quebec, for which I give them great respect . In Quebec it only happened a very small minority of the time. Bearing in mind I am White, and this being a few years ago, was fairly young. Being old and/or Nonwhite would change how people react to you in this context.

I move through the land. As soon as I say something, people hear I have a foreign accent and respond in Globish, which is what I call the debased, international version of English. I mean that language isn't English. Someone even told me once "We foreigners don't care any more what you native speakers say, this is our language now." Which is correct in that Globish is their language and not ours, however English is ours and not theirs. The sooner they become mutually unintelligible the better.

Through a lot of experience I've found the best way to respond to this is to flatly say "What?" in the language you spoke in. Don't give them anything in your tone of voice, facial expression, body language or anything else to react to. You have to act like you don't even understand one word of Globish. As far as I know, I never met someone of my ethnic appearance, and my age then, who did not speak Globish or English. However a small minority of people spoke it badly and were embarrassed about that, so when I reacted this way, that's probably what people thought was going on. Indeed some people would begin to condescend to me as though I was stupid. Sometimes people would speak to me in Globish, and I really didn't understand, because they spoke it badly, then they would condescend to me, which was amusing, although of course I gave no sign.

If you give them anything in your reaction to their Globish, they'll stay in Globish. Expressing dismay that they have changed language, asking them to stop etc. will be counterproductive. In case you're new on Earth, and didn't know that's what most 'people' are like. If you stick to flatly saying "What?", mostly I found they would give up after a couple of tries and go back to whatever language. They will often ask you where you're from, what your native language is etc., but they will do it in the local language. Some will refuse to shift from Globish and you just have to walk away. Of course this can be inconvenient, for instance it happened to me once when I was wanting to pick up quite a valuable parcel. And there was only one person on duty. But there you go.

Since I haven't been abroad for a few years, the rate of this working will have gone down. If you're unlucky enough to be identifiable as a (probable) foreigner by your appearance they will just start in Globish. Also, 'people' being the way they are, often they will accept speaking to you in the local language for a while, then try again with Globish. A neverending process, like women and shit tests. Another thing they will do is sprinkle Globish words and phrases into the local language while speaking to you. This also tends to escalate over time, and when it gets too bad, again you just have to bail.

The better you speak a local language, the less this will happen. However the protective effect is weak. Even if you speak a local language much better than the person speaks Globish, they will generally still try to break you into speaking Globish. Of course, speaking a local language better than the person speaks Globish is getting pretty difficult. Especially in the Germanic countries and Finland. If the person is invested in gaining your favour though that does make a significant difference. A girlfriend, or if you're looking to spend a significant sum of money for instance. However, as you might anticipate, once the person has become your girlfriend, or got your money, the incentive is greatly weakened and boom! here comes the Globish.

These individuals would prefer you to respond to their Globish, and answer in English. However they will tend to accept you responding in a local language, as long as you are responding to their Globish. I've never done that, but have seen others do it a lot. They are constantly pressured to drop the local language. You've put a lot of blood in the water by accepting to be half-way linguistically graped, after all.

Being a native speaker of English a lot of people will just want to hang out with you to use you as an English/Globish practice machine. Of course they won't usually tell you that, but will try to trick you into thinking they enjoy your company for its own sake.


Internet

So that covers the in-person angle. When I first went on the internet in around 2000, there were very few second-language speakers in English-language spaces. However there are absolutely loads now. Of course some of them are immigrants to an English-speaking country. But mostly not. Obviously I welcome this as there is nothing I love more than cultural diversity. I love going to a British homebrewing forum to converse with Poles and Norwegians, for instance - great people with a lot to contribute.

Worryingly I have started to notice two developments in the last few months:

When I post in another language, in an online space for that language, as soon as someone suspects it isn't my native language, they start posting at me in Globish. The same as in person. Again, the slightest little detail in otherwise 99% perfect X language is enough. And once they start it's impossible to stop them. Others will see them doing it, and they start doing it too.

Secondly, I keep seeing these comments, posts, social media etc. in other languages, and 'people' are posting memes in English. Quotes and book excerpts in English. Admitting they are forgetting X language expressions or unaware of new ones, because they only read English. Sprinkling the language with English words.

The replacement of X language words with English words is so fast, that the versions of languages I learnt are already archaic. I come with an X language word and almost none of the locals use it, they just use the English word. This is not limited to online.


General

So like most things nowadays, this is getting worse and worse faster and faster. Unless civilisation, technology and so on deteriorate sharply soon, these languages will either disappear, or survive only among a tiny minority of academics and enthusiasts, as a hobby rather than a legitimate means of conveying culture and information, in a few more generations.

 

[VulcanNervPinch]

The replacement of X language words with English words is so fast, that the versions of languages I learnt are already archaic. I come with an X language word and almost none of the locals use it, they just use the English word. This is not limited to online.


General

So like most things nowadays, this is getting worse and worse faster and faster. Unless civilisation, technology and so on deteriorate sharply soon, these languages will either disappear, or survive only among a tiny minority of academics and enthusiasts, as a hobby rather than a legitimate means of conveying culture and information, in a few more generations.

You're looking at it from a very narrow perspective.

Old languages are useful historically, for translating historical writings, and for understanding historical context of a culture.

Aside from that, hundreds of human languages are grossly inefficient as well as very insular and dividing.
In these senses, the faster they become obsolete and everyone can communicate using the same language, the better.

 

[subtlySteve]

It’s true... English has become the global rockstar, but let’s not forget, languages are always evolving.

"Globish," as they call it, actually helps people communicate in this globalized world.

I grew up in the United States, moved to Sweden about ten years ago, and went through Swedish For Immigrants schooling.

I met people from all over... France, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Poland, Russia, Rwanda, Spain, Greece, China, Albania, North Macedonia, Italy, Lithuania, India, Philippines, etc... and guess what?

English was the bridge that allowed us to actually connect and communicate while we were all struggling to learn Swedish together.

Without it, I wouldn’t have heard the real perspectives of these folks, and they wouldn’t have gotten mine.

As a right-wing, FOX News watching American sitting down and having a heart-to-heart with someone from the Middle East?

Life changing... through that dialogue, we realized we’re not enemies, and for nearly a decade now, we’ve been friends.

That very dialogue helped shift my own thinking, pulling me away from some of those old ideas I held.

So, yeah, language can be the great connector, not the divider.

And hey, it’s probably not the best idea to generalize how people use language... everyone’s got their own experience.

Language contact isn’t just some doomsday scenario where everything falls apart. It can lead to enrichment and adaptation, not just decline.

It’s an upgrade for the human experience.

 

[Pierce 34]

I had a bagel for breakfast. With peanut butter

 

[HHJ]

Quebec (yes, I know this isn't a country)

 

[Flower2dPeople]

Listening to rap music is like watching snuff films for whatever language they use(destroy).

 

[Fury]

It’s true... English has become the global rockstar, but let’s not forget, languages are always evolving.

"Globish," as they call it, actually helps people communicate in this globalized world.

I grew up in the United States, moved to Sweden about ten years ago, and went through Swedish For Immigrants schooling.

I met people from all over... France, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Poland, Russia, Rwanda, Spain, Greece, China, Albania, North Macedonia, Italy, Lithuania, India, Philippines, etc... and guess what?

English was the bridge that allowed us to actually connect and communicate while we were all struggling to learn Swedish together.

Without it, I wouldn’t have heard the real perspectives of these folks, and they wouldn’t have gotten mine.

As a right-wing, FOX News watching American sitting down and having a heart-to-heart with someone from the Middle East?

Life changing... through that dialogue, we realized we’re not enemies, and for nearly a decade now, we’ve been friends.

That very dialogue helped shift my own thinking, pulling me away from some of those old ideas I held.

So, yeah, language can be the great connector, not the divider.

And hey, it’s probably not the best idea to generalize how people use language... everyone’s got their own experience.

Language contact isn’t just some doomsday scenario where everything falls apart. It can lead to enrichment and adaptation, not just decline.

It’s an upgrade for the human experience.

I've traveled a decent amount and been in groups of people from a bunch of countries, English is what our only shared language among the group usually. Lots of airport conversations too.

I used to think about it a lot more but most of them say it's easy to learn because they watch a lot of American/English movies and shows. I can learn French but I have no actual use for it outside of France so I'm not going to build a good base and retain it well.

The short story is I've had some very cool experiences because a bunch of people from different places know English. I stopped worrying about why a while ago. If you told me that I'd have to learn some other language to continue to have these experiences, I would.

 

[Bballfan123]

God doesn't want the races to communicate with each other. That's why the tower of Babel was destroyed. God prefers us to be tribalistic

 

[Osculater]

God doesn't want the races to communicate with each other. That's why the tower of Babel was destroyed. God prefers us to be tribalistic

God is a jerk

 

[Renard]

In Canada, especially Quebec, the language "switch" is mostly because you suck. If you speak French badly, they think "Oh, this is a foreigner or English-speaker" and they switch to English. Your French has to be really good to not get the switch. Some people insist on speaking their bad French, and this is mostly annoying to people because they're not your language teacher. Learning a language is something that 99% happens outside of social interactions. A lot of people don't want to put in the work and they have this fantasy that just speaking badly to random locals will magically fix their lack of study and make them fluent. It won't. There's also an aspect of languages that relies upon your inherent talent. Some people can't reproduce the sounds in other languages so they end up sounding kind of retarded forever. In Japanese class we joked that people who sucked were speaking in katakana. HerRO, this is MaruKU DESU. HajimeMAshITE.

 

[Osculater]

In Canada, especially Quebec, the language "switch" is mostly because you suck. If you speak French badly, they think "Oh, this is a foreigner or English-speaker" and they switch to English. Your French has to be really good to not get the switch. Some people insist on speaking their bad French, and this is mostly annoying to people because they're not your language teacher. Learning a language is something that 99% happens outside of social interactions. A lot of people don't want to put in the work and they have this fantasy that just speaking badly to random locals will magically fix their lack of study and make them fluent. It won't. There's also an aspect of languages that relies upon your inherent talent. Some people can't reproduce the sounds in other languages so they end up sounding kind of retarded forever. In Japanese class we joked that people who sucked were speaking in katakana. HerRO, this is MaruKU DESU. HajimeMAshITE.

Well that's retarded how else are they ever going to learn LOL

 

[Bballfan123]

In Canada, especially Quebec, the language "switch" is mostly because you suck. If you speak French badly, they think "Oh, this is a foreigner or English-speaker" and they switch to English. Your French has to be really good to not get the switch. Some people insist on speaking their bad French, and this is mostly annoying to people because they're not your language teacher. Learning a language is something that 99% happens outside of social interactions. A lot of people don't want to put in the work and they have this fantasy that just speaking badly to random locals will magically fix their lack of study and make them fluent. It won't. There's also an aspect of languages that relies upon your inherent talent. Some people can't reproduce the sounds in other languages so they end up sounding kind of retarded forever. In Japanese class we joked that people who sucked were speaking in katakana. HerRO, this is MaruKU DESU. HajimeMAshITE.

Thats because ppl in Quebec are super fricking annoying and get made fun of the world over bc they act all hoity toity for speaking FRENCH in CANADA, congratulations you speak French no one care
English speakers tolerate foreigners speaking poorly alllll the time without throwing a fit, other language speakers are SUPER insecure that no one cares about their language and love to gatekeep it. Congrats, i dont speak french fluently, I'm trying, you're welcome. Get over yourselves Quebec ppl!

 

[Bballfan123]

Well that's retarded how else are they ever going to learn LOL

They dont want you to learn. They want to put up a langiage-wall because they're super insecure you'll take their woman with your massive Sher-hog. Just like the sissy French people!

 

[Renard]

Well that's retarded how else are they ever going to learn LOL

They're being considerate in their own way. Let's say a Latino person came up to you, clearly struggling to speak English, and you spoke Spanish. Would you obstinately continue speaking English or would you switch to Spanish? Isn't continuing to speak English kind of rude, like you're saying "Adapt to me; I won't adapt to you." This dilemma doesn't come up for most Americans because you guys struggle to even speak English, let alone anything extra.

 

[Osculater]

They dont want you to learn. They want to put up a langiage-wall because they're super insecure you'll take their woman with your massive Sher-hog. Just like the sissy French people!

Stupid fake frenchies

 

[Osculater]

They're being considerate in their own way. Let's say a Latino person came up to you, clearly struggling to speak English, and you spoke Spanish. Would you obstinately continue speaking English or would you switch to Spanish? Isn't continuing to speak English kind of rude, like you're saying "Adapt to me; I won't adapt to you." This dilemma doesn't come up for most Americans because you guys struggles to even speak English, let alone anything extra.

Help the knvkka out so we all learn

 

[Spam On Rye]

But Bertrand Russell said we'd all be speaking esperanto by now.

 

[Bballfan123]

They're being considerate in their own way. Let's say a Latino person came up to you, clearly struggling to speak English, and you spoke Spanish. Would you obstinately continue speaking English or would you switch to Spanish? Isn't continuing to speak English kind of rude, like you're saying "Adapt to me; I won't adapt to you." This dilemma doesn't come up for most Americans because you guys struggle to even speak English, let alone anything extra.

Depends. Is it a man or woman?

 

[Osculater]

Depends. Is it a man or woman?

Always asking the important questions!

 

[650lb Sumo]

Listening to rap music is like watching snuff films for whatever language they use(destroy).

Disagree. You can discuss Locke sipping brandy and wearing your top hat and monocle if you want. Rap is fresh, original, living culture.

I've traveled a decent amount and been in groups of people from a bunch of countries, English is what our only shared language among the group usually. Lots of airport conversations too.

I used to think about it a lot more but most of them say it's easy to learn because they watch a lot of American/English movies and shows. I can learn French but I have no actual use for it outside of France so I'm not going to build a good base and retain it well.

The short story is I've had some very cool experiences because a bunch of people from different places know English. I stopped worrying about why a while ago. If you told me that I'd have to learn some other language to continue to have these experiences, I would.

Yep. You can have a group of 15 people who say speak Russian, and if one of them doesn't speak it, or says she doesn't, or not well enough, the entire group will switch to Globish. I mean it's definitely convenient only having one language, one system of weights and measures and so on.

In Canada, especially Quebec, the language "switch" is mostly because you suck. If you speak French badly, they think "Oh, this is a foreigner or English-speaker" and they switch to English. Your French has to be really good to not get the switch. Some people insist on speaking their bad French, and this is mostly annoying to people because they're not your language teacher. Learning a language is something that 99% happens outside of social interactions. A lot of people don't want to put in the work and they have this fantasy that just speaking badly to random locals will magically fix their lack of study and make them fluent. It won't. There's also an aspect of languages that relies upon your inherent talent. Some people can't reproduce the sounds in other languages so they end up sounding kind of retarded forever. In Japanese class we joked that people who sucked were speaking in katakana. HerRO, this is MaruKU DESU. HajimeMAshITE.

I'm puzzled about this post because it was the opposite of my experience. I did not speak good French, although it was adequate for what I was wanting to do. Less than 1% of people language-switched on me, and when they did it was like trendy university-aged girls. I wouldn't have got a quarter of a way through my first sentence in say, Finland, before being interrupted in Globish, but in Quebec they patiently heard me out, and responded in French. It was such a relief. Again I give the Québécois full credit for respecting their own language and culture.

That's what things used to be like, before I remember, but my older relatives told me about it. They would do something like go to Italy and explain what they wanted with gestures, or by drawing a little picture with a notebook and pencil they carried around. Learning a language is something that 99% happens outside social interactions now, that's true. Because the public will refuse to use the local language with you, as I have described. That's not how it used to be, or should be imo.

It’s true... English has become the global rockstar, but let’s not forget, languages are always evolving.

"Globish," as they call it, actually helps people communicate in this globalized world.

I grew up in the United States, moved to Sweden about ten years ago, and went through Swedish For Immigrants schooling.

I met people from all over... France, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Poland, Russia, Rwanda, Spain, Greece, China, Albania, North Macedonia, Italy, Lithuania, India, Philippines, etc... and guess what?

English was the bridge that allowed us to actually connect and communicate while we were all struggling to learn Swedish together.

Without it, I wouldn’t have heard the real perspectives of these folks, and they wouldn’t have gotten mine.

As a right-wing, FOX News watching American sitting down and having a heart-to-heart with someone from the Middle East?

Life changing... through that dialogue, we realized we’re not enemies, and for nearly a decade now, we’ve been friends.

That very dialogue helped shift my own thinking, pulling me away from some of those old ideas I held.

So, yeah, language can be the great connector, not the divider.

And hey, it’s probably not the best idea to generalize how people use language... everyone’s got their own experience.

Language contact isn’t just some doomsday scenario where everything falls apart. It can lead to enrichment and adaptation, not just decline.

It’s an upgrade for the human experience.

You were supposed to use Swedish for that lol. Although I observed similar behaviour. I went to a British university, and we went on a trip to the country of the language we were studying. Everyone spoke English almost the whole time, except when I and the lecturer were talking to each other. The others did speak some of the local language to locals, but as little as possible.

When I went to a language school abroad, and we also socialised with students from a different one, out of maybe 35 people only I and one chap from the USA would use the language we were learning. The rest used Globish, as far as I observed, 100% of the time (outside of class). With each other and with locals. Of course I wasn't watching them 24/7 so it was probably less than 100%, but not because they wanted it to be.

Even in class other students would address me in Globish. Of course they knew I was British. Once these individuals find out you're a native speaker things get a lot worse. Better not tell them where you're from if they ask, or I would say it's morally justified to lie, tell them you're from a non-English-speaking country, which is plausible, but which they aren't going to know the language of.

I feel sorry for people trying to learn foreign languages at this point, I can't image how bad it must be trying to use Swedish or Dutch for instance. People are going to answer you in Globish 1,000 times out of 1,000.

I don't have much experience in Spanish-speaking countries, but Spanish seems to still have a lot of 'weight' to it. Maybe the Globish pressure isn't quite so bad there. Maybe down in Latin America where you're far from other language zones it's not so bad yet. Yes I know about Brazil and French Guiana etc. but you know what I mean.

Anyway, appreciate the different points of view.