Elections Hillary will be President.

[Anung Un Rama]

Lets put it to a vote!
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/what-hillary-clintons-relationship-establishment-3048977/

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Does this "anti-establishment" debate include agreement over what the "establishment" is?

Lets just cut to the chase:
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/what-hillary-clintons-relationship-establishment-3048977/

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Probably. Kpt put it well, defining it as "The Man." I think it has to be a small group with outsized power relative to its numbers. So the gov't as a whole (in a democratic nation) doesn't really work. When I say that Clinton is "anti-establishment" I am referring to rich capital owners, as opposed to workers. Her support for financial regs, opposition to CU, and especially her proposed changes (increases) to capital-gains taxes all define her as "anti-establishment." Her having the support of unions reflects the anti-establishment nature of her campaign.

But if you just define it in terms of being ahead in the polls, getting most of the big endorsements from her party, fundraising, etc., then, sure, she's an "establishment candidate." But an establishment candidate in that sense can be "anti-establishment" in the truer sense.

The government is a relatively small group of people that is run by an even smaller group. Since it's government that generally dictates laws & life I don't know how it doesn't fit some definition of "the man". Like cops are the man, but they aren't rich folks. Liberals are "the man" by way of wanting to involve government on just about any problem. Unless Hilary has been trying to shift power away from the structure she's inhabiting I'd have a hard time seeing her as anything but pro-establishment.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Lets put it to a vote!
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/what-hillary-clintons-relationship-establishment-3048977/

I almost have to admire your slipperiness. Every time I think I make a post that you're going to concede, and every time you find a way to avoid doing the honorable thing.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

I almost have to admire your slipperiness. Every time I think I make a post that you're going to concede, and every time you find a way to avoid doing the honorable thing.

Ask and thou will receive Jacky Boy.

Can you cite the survey of the group that you're referring to? Or are you making an argument from imagined consensus?

I couldn't find a Sherdog Survey using Google so I had to create my own.
You should vote, too.

 

[Denter]

Probably. Kpt put it well, defining it as "The Man." I think it has to be a small group with outsized power relative to its numbers. So the gov't as a whole (in a democratic nation) doesn't really work. When I say that Clinton is "anti-establishment" I am referring to rich capital owners, as opposed to workers. Her support for financial regs, opposition to CU, and especially her proposed changes (increases) to capital-gains taxes all define her as "anti-establishment." Her having the support of unions reflects the anti-establishment nature of her campaign.

But if you just define it in terms of being ahead in the polls, getting most of the big endorsements from her party, fundraising, etc., then, sure, she's an "establishment candidate." But an establishment candidate in that sense can be "anti-establishment" in the truer sense.

Aren't unions, especially public sector unions, small groups with outsized power relative to their numbers? Or do they get a pass because they want to stick it to the man, dude?

By your definition all sorts of left-leaning groups become part of the "establishment". Your definition is incoherent- "the Man" is not precise enough a term to have a conversation about.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Aren't unions, especially public sector unions, small groups with outsized power relative to their numbers? Or do they get a pass because they want to stick it to the man, dude?

By your definition all sorts of left-leaning groups become part of the "establishment". Your definition is incoherent- "the Man" is not precise enough a term to have a conversation about.

The strength of unions lies in their numbers. They still have less power than management.

Ask and thou will receive Jacky Boy.

I couldn't find a Sherdog Survey using Google so I had to create my own.
You should vote, too.

A better approach would be to poll a random people. And either way, it has no bearing on the truth.

 

[Denter]

The strength of unions lies in their numbers. They still have less power than management.



A better approach would be to poll a random people. And either way, it has no bearing on the truth.

You mean you can't vote on what's right and wrong? Why do you hate democracy, you fascist shitlord?

 

[Gandhi]

Interesting question (assuming you're talking about Big C Communism). I think that is correct, though the dynamics would be entirely different (they wouldn't be fighting for the existing powerful to be more powerful the way the right in a liberal country is). "The Man" would be the state.

This goes back to my point about health care in Canada. Opposing it is certainly not a pro establishment position just as opposing social security is not a pro establishment position in the USA. It does not matter if it helps the poor if everyone supports an established practice. If something is supported by existing power structures so that if is an "established" practice it is part of the establishment (tutology a bit but u get my point). Like social democracy in the Netherlands. A general strike is trying to change the establishment. I will concede there is some grey area when the elite are fighting tooth and nail to reverse any policy they dislike.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You mean you can't vote on what's right and wrong? Why do you hate democracy, you fascist shitlord?

I think people should have a right to a say in the direction of public policy, but truth is a different story.

This goes back to my point about health care in Canada. Opposing it is certainly not a pro establishment position just as opposing social security is not a pro establishment position in the USA. It does not matter if it helps the poor if everyone supports an established practice. If something is supported by existing power structures so that if is an "established" practice it is part of the establishment (tutology a bit but u get my point). Like social democracy in the Netherlands. A general strike is trying to change the establishment. I will concede there is some grey area when the elite are fighting tooth and nail to reverse any policy they dislike.

I understand what you're saying, but I can't agree. That's why I like kpt bringing up "The Man." That's exactly what I'm thinking of as The Establishment. Supporting SS is supported established practice and a political consensus (among voters--I'd guess that most Republican legislators would kill it if they could), but it's not supporting "The Man."

The fact that Denter imagines me using terms of "shitlord" and "dude" when I say that backs up my own position.

 

[ultramanhyata]

If something is supported by existing power structures so that if is an "established" practice it is part of the establishment (tutology a bit but u get my point).

This is exactly what Jack doesn't understand. "The Establishment" is a fluid term. If you had a society that was a pure egalitarian democracy and you had elements within it calling for a caste system and dictatorship those elements would be, by definition, "anti-establishment".

 

[rocketskates]

It's a scary thought but there probably are just enough idiots who will go around with their "it's time for a female president" "it's time for a change" drivel and vote for her without having a clue regarding her political stance.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

This goes back to my point about health care in Canada. Opposing it is certainly not a pro establishment position just as opposing social security is not a pro establishment position in the USA. It does not matter if it helps the poor if everyone supports an established practice. If something is supported by existing power structures so that if is an "established" practice it is part of the establishment (tutology a bit but u get my point). Like social democracy in the Netherlands. A general strike is trying to change the establishment. I will concede there is some grey area when the elite are fighting tooth and nail to reverse any policy they dislike.

Rock the Vote, Gandhi!
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/what-hillary-clintons-relationship-establishment-3048977/

 

[ripskater]

It's a scary thought but there probably are just enough idiots who will go around with their "it's time for a female president" "it's time for a change" drivel and vote for her without having a clue regarding her political stance.

Hope and Change.

 

[Jack V Savage]

This is exactly what Jack doesn't understand. "The Establishment" is a fluid term. If you had a society that was a pure egalitarian democracy and you had elements within it calling for a caste system and dictatorship those elements would be, by definition, "anti-establishment".

Jack understands. Jack does not agree. Jack has explained this many times. Jack is disappointed with the level of discourse in this thread (no offense to the posters--Gandhi, kpt, Denter, etc. who are raising it).

 

[ChainFlow]

Jack understands. Jack does not agree. Jack has explained this many times. Jack is disappointed with the level of discourse in this thread (no offense to the posters--Gandhi, kpt, Denter, etc. who are raising it).

It makes sense. If any group was effectually part of "the establishment", they would BE the wealthy.

It doesn't make sense to conceive of a system where a group controls a disproportionate amount of resources and is NOT somehow part of the privileged "establishment".

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

That's why I like kpt bringing up "The Man."

Me too, since it backs up exactly what I've said in the thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man

"The Man" is a slang phrase that may refer to the government or to some other authority in a position of power. In addition to this derogatory connotation, it may also serve as a term of respect and praise.

The phrase "the Man is keeping me down" is commonly used to describe oppression. The phrase "stick it to the Man" encourages resistance to authority, and essentially means "fight back" or "resist", either passively, openly or via sabotage.[1]

 

[GearSolidMetal]

You guys are going to be shocked when she doesn't even win the nomination.

Since the announcement, she's had a hard time. Her poll numbers are down for trustworthiness, leadership, and even white women. (Holy shit, right?)

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/665351

Bernie Sanders has been drawing crowds in the tens of thousands. Biden is about to enter the race, and there's even rumors that John Kerry might take another crack at it.

None of the other candidates have any controversies, no FBI investigations, or skeletons in their closet. As soon as primary voters realize there other viable candidates, ones that aren't relying on their last name for recognition, ones that are better speakers, and ones that aren't owing favors to foreign governments for donations to their family's foundation. Primary voters will jump ship...

...just like in 2008.

Except this time, the curmbling of her campaign is happening much sooner. Keep an eye out for when the MSM turn their back on Hillary for another candidate, just like they did for Obama.

Just want to bump my own post from mere days ago.

Hillary's poll numbers are sinking fast, and her campaign is about to follow.

Add to this the revelation that her staff members still have top secret documents on their email accounts.

She's practically dead in the water, far before the first debate. She's done.

 

[Taco Loco]

U.S. Presidents are nothing more than a logo change, things will continue to spoil and all the sheep will be like bahbahbahbah!!! when said (change) or promises aren't fulfilled.

 

[mtron929]

In my view, the word establishment is largely synonymous with political power. Accordingly, if you have person A and person B, A is more part of the establishment compared to B if A has more political power. In the most extreme case, a dictator who has all the power in his country is pretty much the establishment regardless of whether he leans left/right in his political point of views.