Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[Big Nasty Edison]

I'm a little confused. When some of you say "Gracie Self Defense" are you equating that with the old timey stuff like bear hug defenses and such or with Gracie Combatives?

 

[TehGwarch]

If I have the option of adding two techniques to my game that are completely equal and one is good for when strikes are involved while the other is not. I will take the technique that works with strikes, other than that I don't really care. I have done the Gracie self defence stuff and I don't plan on doing MMA (at least for a long way away anyway).

I admit, I have made fun of Aikido guys before, but I would respect an Aikido practitioner if they showed me evidence that they regularly spar full contact. Other than that screw it. I do actually respect serious TKD practitioners, but I have little respect for their belt system which seems to make it difficult to determine who is a "serious" TKD practitioner. Also I feel like BJJ has a better gameplan on the feet for dealing with strikers than TKD guys have on the ground for dealing with grapplers. Regardless anyone can be dangerous, especially someone who has trained in anything for a significant length of time.

I love takedowns (granted I suck at them) and I'm largely a sport player. And i'm willing to bet, unless the opponent has some serious wrestling or judo chops that I could escape a bear hug lol.

I have also been in more than one real fight and a real self defence situation, and yes there is a difference. And the absolute kicker...



I love how this implies you are a trained fighter walking around looking to get into fights, so let me flip your argument on you.

How many people that seem to be obsessed with self defence and MMA, seem to never actually practice self defence?

You're probably thinking "wut"?

Like I said, I have done the Gracie self defence curriculum. I learnt a bunch of stuff, what I didn't learn/wasn't told was "keep awareness of your surroundings" or "don't listen to headphones while walking home by yourself at night" which is far more useful than any double leg ever will be.

Isn't it funny self defence guys practice reps on unskilled and non resisting opponents, yet ridicule sport players who train full resistance against skilled opponents by saying they are no better than Aikido guys? Isn't it funny how MMA people think BJJ is invalid when they don't train with strikes, yet how often are they simulating people being glassed in nightclubs or getting attacked by multiple people, and would flail helplessly if someone stabbed them in the face?

90% of the people obsessed with the streets have never realized actual self defence situations are actually exceptionally rare, extremely dangerous and almost impossible to prepare for.

An argument outside a bar, is not a self defence situation it's a fight. People that get into fights are for the most part morons. If you are over your early twenties and continue getting getting in fights, you need to take some anger management classes and get a therapist not a MMA class.

I have been in 1 self defence situation and another situation where someone put hands on me where I had done absolutely nothing and was not prepared. Both times I was sober and both the "attackers" were smashed drunk. I could have handled both of them even if I didn't train. One guy I tripped and ran away, because he kept escalating the violence but was with 3 friends. The other guy I pushed and was so drunk he stumbled and then tripped over his own feet so I walked away. Every other time I used some kind of force (before BJJ) I honestly could have walked away/ignored, I could have avoided the situation by being more aware, or I did something to put myself in that situation.

Also, the Gracie self defence curriculum is pretty flawed at times. Honestly if someone grabs my shirt i'm not going to duck under into a standing hammer lock, i'm going to punch them in the face. It's a far more realistic, simple and higher percentage option.

Also before you say, "well you live in a pussy area" this was all when I lived in what was essentially a slum where 95% of the people were under 25 and lived on less than $400 a week. And at the time, I didn't have a car and I walked everywhere, I also finished work at 11pm when everyone would be heading to nightclubs. I was also involved in drugs for a significant part of my late teens to early twenties.

For that reason I used to carry a knife everywhere I went and I can guarantee there are more people carrying knives around, than people that train. Keep that in mind next time you assume self defence is some badge of honour you can brag about to your training partners or friends. Never assume your training will help you, in reality no martial art or training will, if you can prepare or prep for it then it isn't self defence.

Who said the great American novel was dead? lol

 

[TehGwarch]

Many people say: I just want to train sport.

We still make fun of Aikido, and no blue belt that I have ever seen will not know how to slam his way out of a standing bear hug.

90% of any people, not just us, have never been in a real fight.

I do not know any person outside of the martial arts community in which I participate that is a trained fighter.

Well that settles it. lol

You must not know a lot of blue belts, they squirm a lot, get lifted, then...splat! lol

 

[TehGwarch]

Yes. Nobody throws punches in street fights. Ever. Your hand would explode on impact.

People forget, without footwear and kicking downed opponent you wouldn't see most of the grappling we see either.

Instead of passing your guard the guy grabs your jean cuff and kicks you in the balls with shoes...or in side control he stand up and stomps your face instead of punching or submitting you.

I would stomp the crap out of everyone and break fingers, 12/6 elbows, grappling would be all but gone.

You'd still need to have proficiency but you'd see little actual grappling. Mostly you'd be worried about getting your head stomped than subs.

 

[Gambledub]

Who said the great American novel was dead? lol

I never insisted you read anything, but if you post some stupid ass shit online. I'm gonna call you on it, if you can't make intelligent points defending your opinion I just assume you don't have anything. Also not American.

People forget, without footwear and kicking downed opponent you wouldn't see most of the grappling we see either.

Instead of passing your guard the guy grabs your jean cuff and kicks you in the balls with shoes...or in side control he stand up and stomps your face instead of punching or submitting you.

Yes, because despite Pride and One FC allowing stomps and soccer kicks we see them making a massive difference to the fundamentals of how the guard is played.

I would stomp the crap out of everyone and break fingers, 12/6 elbows, grappling would be all but gone.

You'd still need to have proficiency but you'd see little actual grappling. Mostly you'd be worried about getting your head stomped than subs.

Funny, weren't you the guy just saying how sport BJJ is so inferior to MMA because we don't train realistically? How are your training partners dealing with all the broken fingers?

Try stomp a good guard player, I bet you're on your ass pretty quick... ah fuck it whats the point you're not going to read this, I can see why you get into so many fights dude. You strike me as the "i'm like a fucking animal when I get in the zone bro" type, I bet you're the same type of person that could "totally hulk out of a Rousey armbar" lmao.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Some people do Olympic lifting. Some people do power lifting. Some people do strongman. Others might do a combination of the three. But I don't think I've ever come across a dozen page thread of them all arguing with each other over which type of lifting is the best. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I dunno. I've just never encountered it.

What I'm trying so say here is that I'm kind of hungry and hope lunch comes up soon.

 

[jcandoitbig]

People forget, without footwear and kicking downed opponent you wouldn't see most of the grappling we see either.

Instead of passing your guard the guy grabs your jean cuff and kicks you in the balls with shoes...or in side control he stand up and stomps your face instead of punching or submitting you.

I would stomp the crap out of everyone and break fingers, 12/6 elbows, grappling would be all but gone.

You'd still need to have proficiency but you'd see little actual grappling. Mostly you'd be worried about getting your head stomped than subs.

lol you're literally stuck in 1993 homie. good luck stomping me in side control haha you're just giving me space to recover singlle leg x and blow your knee out ya buffoon

 

[Coconutwater]

you think someone with "modest" skills will be able to stop maia from grapplefucking him? Or jaca, werdum, oliveira, or any elite black belt for that matter? UFC fighters are not "modest" they are pro athletes who live to train and probably spend more time on the mats than most hobbiest black belts do.

Modest grappling skills will get your ass raped in the UFC, unless you are facing melvin mahoef type of guy.

You can't pick Jaca or Werdum or any elite black belts as examples, because most fighters in the UFC aren't elite black belts. Nobody is saying BJJ isn't mandatory. MMA jits burns energy once you fight someone who isn't a complete moron, which is around blue-belt stripe 3 and above.

 

[T-Bone]

Mike Tyson wasn't a "mauler".....
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/mike-tyson-the-panic-the-slip-and-the-counter
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/a-brutally-honest-look-at-mike-tyson-versus-muhammad-ali
Neither was Foreman if you mention him...
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-rumble-in-the-jungle-forty-years-on
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/george-foreman-student-of-the-greats

You missed the joke. He bit (or mauled) a part of evander''s ear off

-T

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You can't pick Jaca or Werdum or any elite black belts as examples, because most fighters in the UFC aren't elite black belts. Nobody is saying BJJ isn't mandatory. MMA jits burns energy once you fight someone who isn't a complete moron, which is around blue-belt stripe 3 and above.

Grappling is more tiring than striking,but the most tiring thing is not grappling on the ground, but wrestling and getting the tds, thats whats most tiring, The level of bjj in the UFC has gone up exponentially, if you have a blue belt level, you better be a damn good wrestler to get back up, other ways, you are fucked. And for a grappler is way easier to grapple fuck a striker with a blue belt level grappling than it is to strike with him.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Grappling is more tiring than striking,but the most tiring thing is not grappling on the ground, but wrestling and getting the tds, thats whats most tiring, The level of bjj in the UFC has gone up exponentially, if you have a blue belt level, you better be a damn good wrestler to get back up, other ways, you are fucked. And for a grappler is way easier to grapple fuck a striker with a blue belt level grappling than it is to strike with him.

I think the "which is more tiring" depends on the type of striking you do. A very bouncey, high movement sport karate style for example was always more tiring to me than anything else.

 

[jack36767]

You missed the joke. He bit (or mauled) a part of evander''s ear off

-T

oh...I see....I understood the joke dumbass...you don't seem to get that I responded with something productive

 

[TehGwarch]

lol you're literally stuck in 1993 homie. good luck stomping me in side control haha you're just giving me space to recover singlle leg x and blow your knee out ya buffoon

I'll take that bet...homie. lol

 

[TehGwarch]

I never insisted you read anything, but if you post some stupid ass shit online. I'm gonna call you on it, if you can't make intelligent points defending your opinion I just assume you don't have anything. Also not American.



Yes, because despite Pride and One FC allowing stomps and soccer kicks we see them making a massive difference to the fundamentals of how the guard is played.



Funny, weren't you the guy just saying how sport BJJ is so inferior to MMA because we don't train realistically? How are your training partners dealing with all the broken fingers?

Try stomp a good guard player, I bet you're on your ass pretty quick... ah fuck it whats the point you're not going to read this, I can see why you get into so many fights dude. You strike me as the "i'm like a fucking animal when I get in the zone bro" type, I bet you're the same type of person that could "totally hulk out of a Rousey armbar" lmao.

I would be happy to stomp a "good guard player" and he would cry, the average guard player is a 165lb beanpole with skinny arms and little pot belly and I have a better guard than him. lol

Stand up strikers and Judo/Wrestlers have the advantage in this style.

Shoes make it way different, bare feet is not a real test. Gracie vs Sakuraba...now give Sak steel toed boots. lol

Ronda Rousey is a girl, Holly Holm defend her arm bar, nobody is afraid of that anymore.

Don't tell me she's "an Olympian". Am I also supposed to be scared of the retarded guy in the wheelchair race? haha

 

[T-Bone]

oh...I see....I understood the joke dumbass...you don't seem to get that I responded with something productive

Sherdog is like any other forum I guess. Name calling when disagreement.

It's 2016. Attention spans are at an all time low. If anyone in this thread read both of your links and watched the videos, I'd be AMAZED.

-T

 

[jack36767]

Sherdog is like any other forum I guess. Name calling when disagreement.

It's 2016. Attention spans are at an all time low. If anyone in this thread read both of your links and watched the videos, I'd be AMAZED.

-T

Great comeback admit you're a dumbass with a short attention span. good work. Watch out for the hammer fists and the "non martial artist" wrestlers

 

[Os3y3ris]

Bjj gyms are full of paying customers.
You want to rep bjj in mma.
Go for it.
Wish you the best.

I'd hope the art is about more than paying customers.

 

[Gentle Giant]

I would be happy to stomp a "good guard player" and he would cry, the average guard player is a 165lb beanpole with skinny arms and little pot belly and I have a better guard than him. lol

Stand up strikers and Judo/Wrestlers have the advantage in this style.

Shoes make it way different, bare feet is not a real test. Gracie vs Sakuraba...now give Sak steel toed boots. lol

Ronda Rousey is a girl, Holly Holm defend her arm bar, nobody is afraid of that anymore.

Don't tell me she's "an Olympian". Am I also supposed to be scared of the retarded guy in the wheelchair race? haha

I can tell from your posts that you're a class act! Always progressive and beyond the "I'll kick everyone on the internets ass, lol". You're absolutely right. Nobody is afraid of armbars anymore because Holly Homes defended it from a "laughable" Olympian Judoka. After all, having Holly Homes defend an armbar by learning BJJ from legends like Tussa proves that. Some idiots on the internet (who are probably 165lb beanpoles with skinny arms and little pot bellies, lol) will try and argue that it was thanks to Holly learning excellent BJJ defense that allowed her to survive Rondas submission attempts, but you and me know better.
We know that nobody is scared of the armbar. We even armbar old ladies and even they know how to defend. Everyone knows how to defend them, that's why nobody is going for them, why they are not high percentage in neither BJJ or MMA, and generally just considered a joke. Just like any other BJJ submission. Wrestlers never get caught in them either. That just doesn't happen and never have.

There is just one thing missing though. Where is the eye gouging? You talked about kicking them in the nuts, but aren't you also going to eye gourge them? With your streetfight expertise I thought that would be one of your go to moves when you make good guard players cry. "lol".

Shoes make you kick so powerful that you can kill the BJJ player by just kicking him with shoes on. and if you kick a BJJ players with shoes 3 times in the nuts while you're in his guardm Biggie Smalls will appear and roundhouse kick the BJJ guy in the face.
Some MMA coaches like Firas Zahabi, John Danaher, Cesar Gracie, Dave Camarillo, Andre Pederneiras, and Ricardo Libiro are known for their BJJ pedigree. Sure they might be some of the most succesful MMA coaches in the world having all produced champions, and sure they might have a high level of BJJ that they instill in their athletes, but we all know that deep down, all these guys know that BJJ is not working because holly homes defended an armbar.
That is why their guys don't train and teach BJJ anymore up to a camp. They stopped rolling, and they don't have to learn new techniques. Most of these coaches sit around and just wish they had learned to kick with shoes on because they know how lethal it is. Particularly on the streets.

Well that settles it. lol

You must not know a lot of blue belts, they squirm a lot, get lifted, then...splat! lol

Absolutely. Most blue belts are like this. It's such a shame too. Almost no blue belts understand or comprehend that if someone tries to slam you, you open your guard while hooking the leg. It's really too bad that it isn't common white belt knowledge and never have been.

What is worse, none of the techniques in BJJ work from standing. Guillotines, kimuras, RNC, wrist locks, foot locks, and sweeps/takedowns that are fundamentally carried over from Judo and Wrestling. They simply cannot be applied from standing. Furthermore, no BJJ guys know how to defend themselves.
They are simply compelled by nature to jump in closed guard or inverted guard. Even if they tried they cannot perceive the complexity of throwing a punch, elbow, kick or whatever else. It simply doesn't happen. A BJJ is forced to sit in the guard and let himself be slammed because that's all what sports BJJ is.
Furthermore even though BJJ guys engage in live sparring almost from day 1, they never understand or are able to use the spartial awareness carried over from live sparring to instinctively try and hook on to an opponent. Particularly not one well versed in grappling, and they absolutely cannot use this awareness that has not never ever been drilled into their bodies through hundreds or thousands hours of sparring.

No BJJ guys learn single or double legs, or any judo throws. There is no overlap here. If you ask a BJJ guy who have trained a few years they will think it is just some buttplug and then try to scissor you. It takes someone of great mental fortitude to understand these concepts and BJJ has never been an artform that took from other grappling arts. That's why BJJ guys wish there was a move called Kimura, or Americana. But there isn't, so BJJ guys cannot do anything but letting themselves get lifted. It's such a shame. You completely nailed it!!

People forget, without footwear and kicking downed opponent you wouldn't see most of the grappling we see either.

Instead of passing your guard the guy grabs your jean cuff and kicks you in the balls with shoes...or in side control he stand up and stomps your face instead of punching or submitting you.

I would stomp the crap out of everyone and break fingers, 12/6 elbows, grappling would be all but gone.

You'd still need to have proficiency but you'd see little actual grappling. Mostly you'd be worried about getting your head stomped than subs.

Absolutely mate. When grabbing the jeans cuff BJJ guys cannot do anything. They are incapable of pulling a person to do them and impose their game. An attacker like yourself can just violent curbstomp and ground'n pound, because with the sort of composure, combat base control you have while standing, bending your body forward as you grab a jean cuff while doing low kicks make you IMMUNE to being swept. Grapples are unable to engage in leg entanglement and impose a foodtlock, or do a simple sweep by using the leverage of a guy who is standing on one foot kicking. Such a shame.
And you're right on about the side control. From side control you just stand up. It's so easy to get out of. You just stand up and then start punching them.

You're an admiration to all of Sherdog Gwarch, and you're showing grapplers everywhere how strong and powerful you are. You're able to break fingers, doing elbows and make everyones grappling null. As you said, you can just stomp everyone.
In fact you don't even really need to train grappling defense. That is why boxers and muay thai fighters dominate UFC. they don't really need to learn grappling because they can just stomp everyone.

 

[lechien]

I'd hope the art is about more than paying customers.

No need to prove Jiu Jitsu in MMA any longer.

UFC is a nice platform to advertise BJJ.

After every UFC, people start calling around their local BJJ gyms.

I do not see the point of training people during BJJ classes to fight MMA.

 

[jack36767]

I'd hope the art is about more than paying customers.

It's a catch - 22 keep the art business based and have to make concessions to keep numbers up

Or make it school/olympic sport and deal with the bs of bureaucracy and corruption among other things