Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[lechien]

It's a catch - 22 keep the art business based and have to make concessions to keep numbers up

Or make it school/olympic sport and deal with the bs of bureaucracy and corruption among other things

you do not need to make concessions to keep the numbers up.
But you will have to make concessions on how much profit you would make.

In my experience, BJJ itself as an art is pretty easy to retain students if you are not a douche.

 

[These Two Hands]

Mike Tyson wasn't a "mauler".....
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/mike-tyson-the-panic-the-slip-and-the-counter
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/a-brutally-honest-look-at-mike-tyson-versus-muhammad-ali
Neither was Foreman if you mention him...
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-rumble-in-the-jungle-forty-years-on
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/george-foreman-student-of-the-greats

Shhhh lol

 

[These Two Hands]

People forget, without footwear and kicking downed opponent you wouldn't see most of the grappling we see either.

Instead of passing your guard the guy grabs your jean cuff and kicks you in the balls with shoes...or in side control he stand up and stomps your face instead of punching or submitting you.

I would stomp the crap out of everyone and break fingers, 12/6 elbows, grappling would be all but gone.

You'd still need to have proficiency but you'd see little actual grappling. Mostly you'd be worried about getting your head stomped than subs.

I've stomped guys in barfights, and chked guys out in barfights. The court has always looked much more favorably on the choking in my experience. Stomping a guy is a good way to win an "all expenses paid vacation" if you know what I mean. Choking a guy you can argue you were restraining your attacker in a safe and controlled manner and shoot for reasonable doubt, at a minimum.

Self defense should always take into account the potential legal ramifications of what you are doing. Even if you are justified, you will potentially have to go to court to defend your actions. I see these SD karate guys I know talk about collapsing peoples' tracheas and shit and I'm like "yeah, man 1 at least bro..."

 

[jack36767]

Shhhh lol

My bad lol

 

[T-Bone]

Great comeback admit you're a dumbass with a short attention span. good work. Watch out for the hammer fists and the "non martial artist" wrestlers

But are least you read my posts. I Did not read yours. Awe, now I feel bad

Here is the thing, I told 6 colleagues at work that I started to take martial arts. They asked which on, and I replied "wrestling." I am taking bjj, but they do not know that.

And I kid you not, each one said something along the lines of "wrestling is a martial art?"

Unscientific poll. Sherdog members believe it is. I googled it and the concensus is that it is a martial art. But I never considered wrestling so, and most average Joes probably don't either.

As for scoffing at the hammer fist, ufc rules state the following is a violation:

• Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.

So kneeing the head (however slight) is disallowed, but smashing the hammer fist on a downed opponent''s nose, mouth, cheeks is OK?

Look, we disagree. It's sherdog. We do not have to dwell on the disagreement. Move on or not. Your choice.

-T

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

It's relative man, bills are higher in Western Countries/Australia/New Zealand, and cost of living varies. The bad area in one city might cost more than a good area in another

Somebody in this thread mentioned a bad area, where people are making living with 400 usd a week...
Monthly salary in Bulgaria is about 500- 800 usd.
China would be anywhere from 300 usd up.
Russia is not that different from Bulgaria.
Mexico as well.
Nigeria would be lower.
Now imagine the bad areas there...
Think about the fact, that Jose Aldo was a homeless guy, while he was training.
MMA is currently the martial art choice number one for the criminals or average troublemakers in Bulgaria.
I know that the majority of the posters here are from US and maybe thats why there is this distorted understanding or clear misconception of what is a self defence situation and what would you expect from a random attacker.
Im expecting him to be nothing less in physical and technical level, than myself.

As for the evolution of BJJ in MMA, I believe that the rest of the fighting sports just had enough time to catch up with BJJ.
Originally BJJ was derived from judo and continued exploring ground game. Later on, in order to popularize the sport, it was practiced with focus on mixed fighting rules (still, under certain rules though). All while the other fighting sports were still practiced purely.
Then UFC happened.
Then the rest of the sports were tailored towards MMA.
Here is the result.
If originally, someone came up with the idea to make wrestling the dominant martial art of MMA, we were about to see the same progression.

 

[jack36767]

But are least you read my posts. I Did not read yours. Awe, now I feel bad

Here is the thing, I told 6 colleagues at work that I started to take martial arts. They asked which on, and I replied "wrestling." I am taking bjj, but they do not know that.

And I kid you not, each one said something along the lines of "wrestling is a martial art?"

Unscientific poll. Sherdog members believe it is. I googled it and the concensus is that it is a martial art. But I never considered wrestling so, and most average Joes probably don't either.

As for scoffing at the hammer fist, ufc rules state the following is a violation:

• Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.

So kneeing the head (however slight) is disallowed, but smashing the hammer fist on a downed opponent''s nose, mouth, cheeks is OK?

Look, we disagree. It's sherdog. We do not have to dwell on the disagreement. Move on or not. Your choice.

-T

um...everyone agrees the knees to the head of an opponent not being allowed is stupid...fyi

 

[Calibur]

Somebody in this thread mentioned a bad area, where people are making living with 400 usd a week...
Monthly salary in Bulgaria is about 500- 800 usd.
China would be anywhere from 300 usd up.
Russia is not that different from Bulgaria.
Mexico as well.
Nigeria would be lower.
Now imagine the bad areas there...
Think about the fact, that Jose Aldo was a homeless guy, while he was training.
MMA is currently the martial art choice number one for the criminals or average troublemakers in Bulgaria.
I know that the majority of the posters here are from US and maybe thats why there is this distorted understanding or clear misconception of what is a self defence situation and what would you expect from a random attacker.
Im expecting him to be nothing less in physical and technical level, than myself.

As for the evolution of BJJ in MMA, I believe that the rest of the fighting sports just had enough time to catch up with BJJ.
Originally BJJ was derived from judo and continued exploring ground game. Later on, in order to popularize the sport, it was practiced with focus on mixed fighting rules (still, under certain rules though). All while the other fighting sports were still practiced purely.
Then UFC happened.
Then the rest of the sports were tailored towards MMA.
Here is the result.
If originally, someone came up with the idea to make wrestling the dominant martial art of MMA, we were about to see the same progression.

I had to chime in on this.

I frequent bars and clubs all the time. Most of my friends work there in some capacity and I used to see "streetfights" at least once a week.

Everyone says "oh, I just want self defense" so I say "train mma" then they say, I'm not trying to beat up a fighter. I just want to be able to defend myself against a normal person.

Normal people don't street fight. Fighters do. In my experience, people who go looking for trouble know how to fight, so the Gracie wrist grab defense might not work near as well as you think.

 

[number9dream]

I never insisted you read anything, but if you post some stupid ass shit online. I'm gonna call you on it, if you can't make intelligent points defending your opinion I just assume you don't have anything. Also not American.



Yes, because despite Pride and One FC allowing stomps and soccer kicks we see them making a massive difference to the fundamentals of how the guard is played.



Funny, weren't you the guy just saying how sport BJJ is so inferior to MMA because we don't train realistically? How are your training partners dealing with all the broken fingers?

Try stomp a good guard player, I bet you're on your ass pretty quick... ah fuck it whats the point you're not going to read this, I can see why you get into so many fights dude. You strike me as the "i'm like a fucking animal when I get in the zone bro" type, I bet you're the same type of person that could "totally hulk out of a Rousey armbar" lmao.

O see you missed the bjj and heavy lifting thread. If you had read it you would already know what a first rate douchebag this guy is :/

 

[mataleaos]

I know that some people believe that UFC 1 proved that traditional martial arts are ineffective in real life. But in reality, all it did was show a hole in traditional martial arts. As UFC's continued, in less than a decade, BJJ was no longer king. Wrestlers were learning how defend submissions. Strikers were learning how to stuff takedowns. So while UFC 1 exposed the fact that most martial arts have no ground game, modern MMA is exposing the fact that BJJ has no stand up game. And that, in my opinion, is a problem.

I remember there was a time where maybe 50% of black belts dreamed of testing themselves in MMA. The Nog bros even ditched the gi for a while. There was a time where guys wanted to represent BJJ as a martial art that was still relevant. But what's the current role of BJJ in MMA? Watching Feijao have a pretty useless guard against OSP tells me. It's supplemental. It's not treated as essential. It's not your rifle. It's not even your side arm. It's your knife. It's like a last resort. A forgotten tool unless the opportunity presents itself.

Even when it's used, it's mostly just the same basic stuff that we've seen for years. Meanwhile, BJJ players are evolving the art at a rapid rate in a sport context. Sitting straight to their butts. Spinning upside down, pulling pants, and tying the gi in knots. I notice that the new BJJ dream isn't to compete in MMA. It's to win medals and open a school.

So all of this leads me to ask, has BJJ stopped evolving for MMA? Is this it? BJJ has reached it's maximum potential as a martial art in MMA? There is nothing else that can be done to improve its effectiveness? It really makes me wonder if BJJ really is the ultimate martial art or if it really is more of a back up plan.

I almost feel like boxing would be a better martial art to learn.

I don't think it's reached its maximum potential at all but for someone just starting mma generally I do see how it could become just a backup plan of sorts.

Most of what we see in terms of the better bjj in mma is intermediate level techniques done at an advanced level. Across the board I think the level of bjj in mma in maybe blue/purple belt level. I don't think it's reached its potential or stopped evolving. I just think for most mma fighters that don't come from a BJJ background, the scoring system in MMA doesn't really incentivize spending so much time on BJJ to become expert level, when you could better spend that time working on wrestling for example, where you can dictate where the fight takes place.

I think there are innovations and evolutions being made in BJJ. Watching guys like Ryan Hall or Tony Ferguson using Imanari rolling attacks as a way to get the fight to the floor is very creative. I think the use of leg locks is going to jump. Weidman tried a leg lock game on Anderson Silva. Sometimes it takes something being usd in a big fight to take off.

Submissions that we never saw from 1993-2007 are much more common. There were twice as many darce chokes in the UFC from 2012-2015 as there were from 1993 through the end of 2011. Luke Thomas and T.P. Grant have been posting about the evolution of the guillotine choke recently on big mma websites, and how we are seeing it grow and change a lot in recent years. They have all these stats that show the effectiveness of it is rising rapidly, and the evolution of in in terms of variations and grips is also skyrocketing.

I do think leg locks have a lot of room to be displayed. I think it will take some people that can do them that can show how they're pretty safe to not lose position. I'm still waiting for the north south choke to take off. More butterfly guard. I do think that striking is evolving super fast and BJJ might always be something where you won't see as many crazy things unless it's a specialist. Sport BJJ seems to be ahead of the curve by 3-5 years. If some new trend happens in sport grappling it usually takes a few years to bleed over into mma.

One thing I keep waiting for is for good wrestlers to do less G&P and go for more pure control leading to top subs. We've seen some guys do it and I don't see how it scores less to the judges. Any D-1 wrestler with crushing chokes from top half guard can beast in mma.

 

[T-Bone]

um...everyone agrees the knees to the head of an opponent not being allowed is stupid...fyi

Thanks. I guessed i missed the Poll affirming everyone agreed to that.

-T

 

[TehGwarch]

I've stomped guys in barfights, and chked guys out in barfights. The court has always looked much more favorably on the choking in my experience. Stomping a guy is a good way to win an "all expenses paid vacation" if you know what I mean. Choking a guy you can argue you were restraining your attacker in a safe and controlled manner and shoot for reasonable doubt, at a minimum.

Self defense should always take into account the potential legal ramifications of what you are doing. Even if you are justified, you will potentially have to go to court to defend your actions. I see these SD karate guys I know talk about collapsing peoples' tracheas and shit and I'm like "yeah, man 1 at least bro..."

Bar fights. lol

The outcome of a bar fight doesn't really matter.

I left without talking to police because nobody was around or it was over so fast nobody cared. People tend to seriously hurt you when witnesses are not around.

I know, I know people never try to hurt each other outside of a bar. lol That's why real martial artists tend to come from FSU or South America.

Americans hipsters in gated communities talking about bar fights with other pussies like they are emergencies.

 

[TehGwarch]

O see you missed the bjj and heavy lifting thread. If you had read it you would already know what a first rate douchebag this guy is :/

Looks like a nerve was struck.

"That's the dumbest thing I ever read"

Now you act surprised I wasn't nice. Boohoo.

 

[TehGwarch]

I can tell from your posts that you're a class act! Always progressive and beyond the "I'll kick everyone on the internets ass, lol". You're absolutely right. Nobody is afraid of armbars anymore because Holly Homes defended it from a "laughable" Olympian Judoka. After all, having Holly Homes defend an armbar by learning BJJ from legends like Tussa proves that. Some idiots on the internet (who are probably 165lb beanpoles with skinny arms and little pot bellies, lol) will try and argue that it was thanks to Holly learning excellent BJJ defense that allowed her to survive Rondas submission attempts, but you and me know better.
We know that nobody is scared of the armbar. We even armbar old ladies and even they know how to defend. Everyone knows how to defend them, that's why nobody is going for them, why they are not high percentage in neither BJJ or MMA, and generally just considered a joke. Just like any other BJJ submission. Wrestlers never get caught in them either. That just doesn't happen and never have.

There is just one thing missing though. Where is the eye gouging? You talked about kicking them in the nuts, but aren't you also going to eye gourge them? With your streetfight expertise I thought that would be one of your go to moves when you make good guard players cry. "lol".

Shoes make you kick so powerful that you can kill the BJJ player by just kicking him with shoes on. and if you kick a BJJ players with shoes 3 times in the nuts while you're in his guardm Biggie Smalls will appear and roundhouse kick the BJJ guy in the face.
Some MMA coaches like Firas Zahabi, John Danaher, Cesar Gracie, Dave Camarillo, Andre Pederneiras, and Ricardo Libiro are known for their BJJ pedigree. Sure they might be some of the most succesful MMA coaches in the world having all produced champions, and sure they might have a high level of BJJ that they instill in their athletes, but we all know that deep down, all these guys know that BJJ is not working because holly homes defended an armbar.
That is why their guys don't train and teach BJJ anymore up to a camp. They stopped rolling, and they don't have to learn new techniques. Most of these coaches sit around and just wish they had learned to kick with shoes on because they know how lethal it is. Particularly on the streets.




Absolutely. Most blue belts are like this. It's such a shame too. Almost no blue belts understand or comprehend that if someone tries to slam you, you open your guard while hooking the leg. It's really too bad that it isn't common white belt knowledge and never have been.

What is worse, none of the techniques in BJJ work from standing. Guillotines, kimuras, RNC, wrist locks, foot locks, and sweeps/takedowns that are fundamentally carried over from Judo and Wrestling. They simply cannot be applied from standing. Furthermore, no BJJ guys know how to defend themselves.
They are simply compelled by nature to jump in closed guard or inverted guard. Even if they tried they cannot perceive the complexity of throwing a punch, elbow, kick or whatever else. It simply doesn't happen. A BJJ is forced to sit in the guard and let himself be slammed because that's all what sports BJJ is.
Furthermore even though BJJ guys engage in live sparring almost from day 1, they never understand or are able to use the spartial awareness carried over from live sparring to instinctively try and hook on to an opponent. Particularly not one well versed in grappling, and they absolutely cannot use this awareness that has not never ever been drilled into their bodies through hundreds or thousands hours of sparring.

No BJJ guys learn single or double legs, or any judo throws. There is no overlap here. If you ask a BJJ guy who have trained a few years they will think it is just some buttplug and then try to scissor you. It takes someone of great mental fortitude to understand these concepts and BJJ has never been an artform that took from other grappling arts. That's why BJJ guys wish there was a move called Kimura, or Americana. But there isn't, so BJJ guys cannot do anything but letting themselves get lifted. It's such a shame. You completely nailed it!!







Absolutely mate. When grabbing the jeans cuff BJJ guys cannot do anything. They are incapable of pulling a person to do them and impose their game. An attacker like yourself can just violent curbstomp and ground'n pound, because with the sort of composure, combat base control you have while standing, bending your body forward as you grab a jean cuff while doing low kicks make you IMMUNE to being swept. Grapples are unable to engage in leg entanglement and impose a foodtlock, or do a simple sweep by using the leverage of a guy who is standing on one foot kicking. Such a shame.
And you're right on about the side control. From side control you just stand up. It's so easy to get out of. You just stand up and then start punching them.

You're an admiration to all of Sherdog Gwarch, and you're showing grapplers everywhere how strong and powerful you are. You're able to break fingers, doing elbows and make everyones grappling null. As you said, you can just stomp everyone.
In fact you don't even really need to train grappling defense. That is why boxers and muay thai fighters dominate UFC. they don't really need to learn grappling because they can just stomp everyone.

Another multi-quote novelist.

Just to make this clear...I do this in my spare time.

Guess there's only 1 thing to settle this - put shoes on the fighters, fight with concrete floor and walls and allow everything.

Didn't think so.

 

[SBJ]

From:

Feb 8, 2016
Hywel Teague

Click here:

http://www.flograppling.com/article/39455-13-things-only-og-grapplers-will-remember​

13 Things Only OG Grapplers Will Remember​

​

​

Long before the days of MGinAction and the Mendes brothers winning almost every gold medal imaginable, jiu-jitsu was a very different landscape. A lucky few in places like Los Angeles and New York had access to world-class jiu-jitsu instructors from an early stage, but for the rest of us it was a long, slow process characterized by learning from our mistakes.

Note – A huge thank you to Colin Robinson and Simon Hayes for sharing some old-school photographs.

1: The Skinny Dude Who Tangled People Up On The Floor And Inspired A Revolution

When Royce Gracie walked into the cage during the first ever UFC in 1993, few people gave him a snowball’s chance in hell of beating all those big tough karate dudes. He’d just get flying kicked in the face, right? WRONG. Tap, tap, tap went his opponents, and along came a paradigm shift in the way we thought about martial arts. Things would never be the same again.​

2: We Didn’t Train For Jiu-Jitsu Competitions, We Trained For ‘NHB’

Jiu-jitsu competitions didn’t even exist! We wouldn’t have known where to sign up for a grappling tournament even if we’d wanted to. Nope, we trained for ‘no holds barred’, which meant slap-fighting, learning how to double-leg a guy trying to hit you, and punching people in the face to open up an armbar from mount.

3: Gis Were White, And They Were Usually Judo Gis

Forget close-fitting multi-colored designer gis with rashguard linings. We had baggy judo gis with sleeves that cut off 6 inches above our wrists. Sometimes we even resorted to rolling in karate uniforms! OG grapplers will remember well the burns that collar chokes would leave upon the neck. Instead of looking like a badass, you just looked as if you were into auto-erotic asphyxiation. Difficult to explain to family, friends and co-workers.​

4: For The LONGEST Time, Everyone Was A White Belt

Except maybe your instructor, who was a blue belt. Back in the day blue belts were something special and hard earned, purple belts were damn-near god-like and had magical powers on the mat. As for black belts… Who ever saw a black belt except in a pirated VHS tape of an instructional series? Speaking of….
​

5: 4th Generation VHS Copies Were The Most Common Way To Learn

Mario Sperry’s legendary ‘vale tudo’ series of video tapes, Renzo Gracie and Craig Kukuk, and the infamous Gracies in Action… If you never poured over the list of 10-VHS tape sets as advertised in Black Belt magazine, you definitely didn’t train BJJ back in the day.​

6: Training In Your Garage

Nothing says ‘old school’ like choking out your friends in your garage because there were no gyms in your area. But that was fine, because we all kind of felt like we were in our own version of 'Fight Club' anyway.

Sparring, old-school style. Photo from the Carlson Gracie gym in London, 2004. Courtesy Simon Hayes​

7: 'Basic' Training Facilities

Gyms were far different from the gleaming, luxury palaces / health spas they are now.

Royce Gracie teaching a seminar in the early 00s. Look at the get-up of the students... Is that a red belt in the back?​

8: Driving Across States (And Sometimes Cross-Country) For Seminars With Black Belts

Seminars were a rare occasion to train with a genuine expert in the art. For that reason, you’d drive countless hours for a couple of hours of techniques. Of those, you’d maybe remember one, but you’ll be damned if you don’t remember that technique and it’s still part of your game even until today. So, money well spent.

​

9: When Grappling Tournaments Were Chaos

Before the days of the IBJJF and the other professional tournament organizers, grappling tournaments were complete bedlam and reminiscent of the early MMA shows. You’ve have a guy in a gi grappling a guy in a wrestling singlet with boots. Some judo black belt would come in and destroy people with throws until somebody finally got his back and choked him. And nobody, least of all the organizers, knew what the rules were.​

10: (Almost) Nobody Had Been To Brazil

In the 90s and even into the 00s, making the trip to Brazil was almost unthinkable. If the fear of getting kidnapped didn’t put you off, then the idea of being torn apart by angry Brazilians kept most people at home. Very few hardy souls made the trip to South America to train in those days, with most people opting for a trip to SoCal instead.

11: Takedowns

We still trained them, and they meant something dammit!​

12: Brazilian Branded Fightwear Was The Best

Who doesn’t remember Bad Boy or Vitamins and Minerals vale tudo shorts, Hunter fightwear, Hotblood...?​

13: No-Gi Training Attire Was Often... Unconventional

No-gi meant – literally – taking your gi top off. No rashguard? No problem! Training bare chested was nothing to be afraid of. Rashguards didn't even come into vogue until Egan Inoue wore one at ADCC 1999. Shorts (often with zippers and pockets), muscle vests, and wrestling boots were all the rage.

No-gi, circa early 00s... And there's your author, there at bottom right.​

 

[jack36767]

Thanks. I guessed i missed the Poll affirming everyone agreed to that.

-T

Well, artificially limiting the fight rules with certain rules like the 12-6 elbow or knees to a grounded opponent is dumb to a significant group of people...not "everyone" my bad

Maybe because we don't like rules invented and asked for by the type of politicians that appeal to scared suburban church moms to win votes. And don't understand fighting. But hey its all good, it's clear you've never trained that long or know what you are talking about

 

[number9dream]

Looks like a nerve was struck.

"That's the dumbest thing I ever read"

Now you act surprised I wasn't nice. Boohoo.

Every post you made in that thread consisted of you calling people "sparky", 130 lbs weaklings, virgins or just generally being unpleasant and condescending.

I dont need to be any of the above to see that you're a bit of a prick.

 

[TehGwarch]

Every post you made in that thread consisted of you calling people "sparky", 130 lbs weaklings, virgins or just generally being unpleasant and condescending.

I dont need to be any of the above to see that you're a bit of a prick.

That was right after they said "that's the stupidest thing I've ever read".

I spent 10 minutes typing up the full workout for someone who asked me nicely.

But yes, I am a prick. There's good reasons for that. lol

 

[T-Bone]

Well, artificially limiting the fight rules with certain rules like the 12-6 elbow or knees to a grounded opponent is dumb to a significant group of people...not "everyone" my bad

Maybe because we don't like rules invented and asked for by the type of politicians that appeal to scared suburban church moms to win votes. And don't understand fighting. But hey its all good, it's clear you've never trained that long or know what you are talking about

Been watching UFC for 20 years, watched boxing since I was a kid. I have an opinion on rules... just like you. IMO, a few rule changes improves the level of competition in MMA.

If we look at MMA as just fighing, well, we can go back to the almost-no-holds-barred days. Nah, UFC was not as exciting as today. Allow hammer fists to a standing opponent only and ya know what happens? The athletes have to use a new tactical technique when on the ground. That, my good man, improves the sport.

Is your opinion worth more weight than mine? Enlighten us and explain why, otherwise, chalk this up as we disagree.

Thanks for contributing.

-T

 

[jack36767]

Been watching UFC for 20 years, watched boxing since I was a kid. I have an opinion on rules... just like you. IMO, a few rule changes improves the level of competition in MMA.

If we look at MMA as just fighing, well, we can go back to the almost-no-holds-barred days. Nah, UFC was not as exciting as today. Allow hammer fists to a standing opponent only and ya know what happens? The athletes have to use a new tactical technique when on the ground. That, my good man, improves the sport.

Is your opinion worth more weight than mine? Enlighten us and explain why, otherwise, chalk this up as we disagree.

Thanks for contributing.

-T

I just want clarification...you want this new rule because hammers fists aren't "technical" enough because any person can do them.. and because it "will force new tactics on the ground", am I getting that right?

I think keeping hammer fists, bringing back 12-6 elbows and knees to the ground will force new and better tactics that better favor groundwork and will actually give bjj guys more options to stop and hurt wrestlers.

The biggest thing that would benefit bjj guys without artificially going back to NHB era to completely favor them would be a 10 minute first round