Hagler-Leonard Anniversary Let's Score it

[Boxiana]

Scored it 115-113 Leonard.

I’ve always loved Haglers style, but he just wasn’t effective enough. His corner was also weak - they needed to be reading him the riot act after he gave away the first two rounds.

Will now check my scores against the official card.

Another thing I noticed was how good the commentary team was - not saying too much, just calling it as they saw it.

Round 1: 10/9 SRL - clear SRL - moving and landing, Hagler with nothing meaningful.
Round 2: 20/18 SRL - clear SRL - Hagler more aggressive but Leonard countering and landing effective shots.
Round 3: 30/27 SRL - close SRL - Hagler more effective as southpaw, Leonard lands lead rights and combination at the end of the round to take it.
Round 4: 40/36 SRL - close SRL - Leonard elusive and fighting out of the clinch effectively, Hagler landing a couple of good body shots.
Round 5: 49/46 SRL - clear Hagler - Leonard landing clean stinging rights, but Hagler with a hard left and hard right in the final minute to take the round.
Round 6: 58/56 SRL - close Hagler - Hagler landing the harder shots, Leonard flurrying, both tiring.
Round 7: 67/66 SRL - clear Hagler - Hagler with constant aggression and some success. Leonard looking to hold.
Round 8: 77/75 SRL - clear Leonard - Hagler pressurizing but not landing.
Round 9: 86/85 SRL - clear Hagler - hard, punishing bodyshots and a clean left cross. Leonard with flashy combos which may sway the judges, but for me a clear round for Hagler.
Round 10: 95/95 - close Hagler - flurry combos from Leonard but Haglers plodding aggression is more effective.
Round 11: 105/104 SRL - clear Leonard - making Hagler miss and landing cleanly. Great movement.
Round 12: 115/113 SRL - close Leonard - flashy but ineffective flurries enough to take the round as Hagler failed to land clean.

 

[Streeter]

Hagler my favorite boxer ever n even I scored it for Leonard by 2 rds

 

[Boxiana]

Scored it 115-113 Leonard.

I’ve always loved Haglers style, but he just wasn’t effective enough. His corner was also weak - they needed to be reading him the riot act after he gave away the first two rounds.

Will now check my scores against the official card.

Another thing I noticed was how good the commentary team was - not saying too much, just calling it as they saw it.

Round 1: 10/9 SRL - clear SRL - moving and landing, Hagler with nothing meaningful.
Round 2: 20/18 SRL - clear SRL - Hagler more aggressive but Leonard countering and landing effective shots.
Round 3: 30/27 SRL - close SRL - Hagler more effective as southpaw, Leonard lands lead rights and combination at the end of the round to take it.
Round 4: 40/36 SRL - close SRL - Leonard elusive and fighting out of the clinch effectively, Hagler landing a couple of good body shots.
Round 5: 49/46 SRL - clear Hagler - Leonard landing clean stinging rights, but Hagler with a hard left and hard right in the final minute to take the round.
Round 6: 58/56 SRL - close Hagler - Hagler landing the harder shots, Leonard flurrying, both tiring.
Round 7: 67/66 SRL - clear Hagler - Hagler with constant aggression and some success. Leonard looking to hold.
Round 8: 77/75 SRL - clear Leonard - Hagler pressurizing but not landing.
Round 9: 86/85 SRL - clear Hagler - hard, punishing bodyshots and a clean left cross. Leonard with flashy combos which may sway the judges, but for me a clear round for Hagler.
Round 10: 95/95 - close Hagler - flurry combos from Leonard but Haglers plodding aggression is more effective.
Round 11: 105/104 SRL - clear Leonard - making Hagler miss and landing cleanly. Great movement.
Round 12: 115/113 SRL - close Leonard - flashy but ineffective flurries enough to take the round as Hagler failed to land clean.

Does anyone have the official scorecards round by round?

118-110 seemed wild at first, but if my eye had been caught by Leonard’s flurries in the 9th and 10th, I’d almost be there.

 

[Seano]

I could see it as a draw, honestly, if you gave the first 4 rounds to Sugar Ray. But there's no fucking way that Ray "won" that fight. His whole strategy was built to not FIGHT Hagler. Fact.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great tactical fight by Leonard. He knew that he was old, and had a wonky eye, and he tailored his approach to lessen the impact to said eye. But he never imposed himself on Hagler, either mentally or physically.

His win was style and narrative over substance.

His strategy was to outbox Hagler and avoid damage which was what he did. What was he supposed to do? Go toe to toe with the hardest hitting middleweight in the game?
Hagler was the one who failed to adjust and get anything done, not Ray.

 

[Boxiana]

One of the most debated decisions amongst boxing fans in history.
No better time than now for us to score it.

I've had it for both guys, I've had it a draw. There's a few different ways you could go w/ this one, probably the single fight I've scored on paper the most times in my life. If I were to show a new boxing fan a fight that was about as tough to score as possible, I'd probably show them this one.

It’s a fantasy match up and an absorbing fight to watch, but I see no controversy in the result, and whilst a close fight I didn’t struggle really hard to score individual rounds.

I would find it really hard to score this for Hagler.

 

[Buddy Revell]

His strategy was to outbox Hagler and avoid damage which was what he did. What was he supposed to do? Go toe to toe with the hardest hitting middleweight in the game?
Hagler was the one who failed to adjust and get anything done, not Ray.

Eh, that’s harsh on Hagler. Sure, if you’re holding him to a much higher standard than Leonard I suppose he deserved to lose. But that’s not how fights should be judged. He was the champ. The aggressor. And as I stated before, clearly landed the harder punches and was never troubled by Ray.

Ray did a great job of playing keepaway, essentially leaching the fight clock down so as to — as you alluded to — not have to fight. He boxed pretty and got the better of the ring generalship, no doubt. But never threatened to even threaten to take the fight to the champ much less take his strap.

Haglers loss was purely a case of a fight being won because it fulfilled the judges and spectators desire for a specific narrative to play itself out.

Everybody in the building that night who wasn’t for Hagler, no doubt a small minority, was cheering for Ray to get his storybook ending. I suppose it’s Hagler’s fault for not knocking Ray out since anything short of that was probably not going to get him the win

 

[Boxiana]

Eh, that’s harsh on Hagler. Sure, if you’re holding him to a much higher standard than Leonard I suppose he deserved to lose. But that’s not how fights should be judged. He was the champ. The aggressor. And as I stated before, clearly landed the harder punches and was never troubled by Ray.

Ray did a great job of playing keepaway, essentially leaching the fight clock down so as to — as you alluded to — not have to fight. He boxed pretty and got the better of the ring generalship, no doubt. But never threatened to even threaten to take the fight to the champ much less take his strap.

Have you actually scored the fight? What did you end up with?

 

[Buddy Revell]

Have you actually scored the fight? What did you end up with?

I had it 8-4 (116-112) but i could see it having been a draw if someone gave Leonard rounds 1-4. Honestly don’t see how he won it.

 

[Boxiana]

I had it 8-4 (116-112) but i could see it having been a draw if someone gave Leonard rounds 1-4. Honestly don’t see how he won it.

Which of the first 4 did you give to Hagler?

 

[Buddy Revell]

Which of the first 4 did you give to Hagler?

Just saw your earlier post. Wish I’d kept my round for round notes. Disagree with you, but nice job

To answer your question, I gave Hagler rounds 2&4

I preferred his aggression, and his body punching and uppercuts in the clinch as compared to Ray landing the occasional flurry to the crown of Haglers dome and slapping body punch on his belt line. Saw nothing of any substance from him.

Tl/dr: Haglers aggression and clean punching body/head > Rays ring generalship, showmanship

A moment that I remembered jumping out at me was at the end of the 2nd round. Look closely. Hagler nails Ray with a clean hard left hook. Ray takes it well. Ray then immediately taunts Hagler as if the punch didn’t land. The crowd goes wild. I’d like to see those scorecards too. Cause I bet Ray won that round, smh.

 

[Confucamus]

I've scored this fight 3 separate times over the years. The first time I scored it, I had Hagler winning. The two timers after that I had Ray Leonard winning. Tough fight to score. Really depends on what you're looking for when you score fights.

I heard he actually didn't make a ton of money in films. Theres a story about Hearns trying to get him to rematch. Hagler said he was getting a couple hundred grand for each movie and Hearns was surprised he didn't want to fight again for millions.

Hagler is my favorite fighter of all time, but I think he must've sat down and watched the Leonard fight not too long after it actually happened and saw what many people saw. He was slow. The Mugabi fight took the last bit of his prime right out of him. He has since said he never put on a pair of boxing gloves again after the Leonard fight and I think it was because he didn't believe he'd be able to get the decision against Leonard if they fought again. One close loss is easier to stubbornly defend than two losses in a row. I don't think that even potential millions for a rematch could make him think twice about it.

 

[Boxiana]

Just saw your earlier post. Wish I’d kept my round for round notes. Disagree with you, but nice job

To answer your question, I gave Hagler rounds 2&4

I preferred his aggression, and his body punching and uppercuts in the clinch as compared to Ray landing the occasional flurry to the crown of Haglers dome and slapping body punch on his belt line. Saw nothing of any substance from him.

Tl/dr: Haglers aggression and clean punching body/head > Rays ring generalship, showmanship

A moment that I remembered jumping out at me was at the end of the 2nd round. Look closely. Hagler nails Ray with a clean hard left hook. Ray takes it well. Ray then immediately taunts Hagler as if the punch didn’t land. The crowd goes wild. I’d like to see those scorecards too. Cause I bet Ray won that round, smh.

Agree that Leonard played the crowd well, but I just didn’t see enough clean punches landed from Hagler.

Second round is a good example - Hagler only landed two clean punches that I saw (lead left at the beginning, and the left hook you mention at the end), and I find it hard to give him the round based on that alone - Leonard landed more scoring punches, even if they were not as hard.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, but that’s what makes it interesting!

 

[Seano]

Does anyone have the official scorecards round by round?

118-110 seemed wild at first, but if my eye had been caught by Leonard’s flurries in the 9th and 10th, I’d almost be there.

The book Sorcery at Caesars had the round by round scores from each judge. If I can find it, I'll post them up later.

 

[aries]

I've scored this fight 3 separate times over the years. The first time I scored it, I had Hagler winning. The two timers after that I had Ray Leonard winning. Tough fight to score. Really depends on what you're looking for when you score fights.



Hagler is my favorite fighter of all time, but I think he must've sat down and watched the Leonard fight not too long after it actually happened and saw what many people saw. He was slow. The Mugabi fight took the last bit of his prime right out of him. He has since said he never put on a pair of boxing gloves again after the Leonard fight and I think it was because he didn't believe he'd be able to get the decision against Leonard if they fought again. One close loss is easier to stubbornly defend than two losses in a row. I don't think that even potential millions for a rematch could make him think twice about it.

This. Hagler looked slow in there. Leonards foot speed and hand speed particularly when he let those flashy combinations go really stood out. But it was his accuracy that really struck home. He'd let go 4-5 punch combinations and land every one on Hagler's head. Meanwhile Hagler was struggling to pin Ray down and then when he did he was seen to be missing a lot more. I really wish Hagler had gone to the body earlier in the fight and like many have mentioned I wished he'd been southpaw through the whole fight. I gave Leonard the first 4 rounds and I'd have really liked to see Hagler work harder and move faster to get to Leonard. It's been a long time since I watched the fight and I didn't score it then but I had Leonard winning it. Just scoring it now and I give 116-112 to Leonard. A pretty clear win for Leonard although it pains me to say as Hagler is my all-time favourite fighter.

And I noticed the 118-110 from one judge, pretty crooked but objectively you can say it's only 2 rounds different.

 

[ssx]

I finally got around to watching the entire fight and scoring it again... been a few years, and was hoping I missed something Hagler did better this time around... that said, nope. 115-113 Leonard just like before.