Law Gun and Gun Control News/Discussion

[oldshadow]

Punishment for the criminal has been the first step for a long time. Nobody is trying to take that away.

You yourself want to punish people for improper storage of their firearms. You said so in the post I quoted above this one so at this point, we are agreeing that it should be done and it’s now about deciding when and to whom.

Only if is an agreement to give the time I posted to gun theft and a felon in possession of an illegal gun. Then we can talk about a fine for leaving a gun in an un locked vehicle in plain sight.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Quality would suffer, demand would shrink because law abiding people won't seek out criminal organizations to buy black market guns (in general). But there WILL be a market and money to be made by catering to those who need guns for less than legal reasons.
Would criminals in some cases have to "work harder" to aquire guns? Sure, probably. But they'd need the guns, so they'll still do what they have to in order to get them. The ones who won't are the turkey hunter from Minnesota or the guy who likes to target shoot every now and then from Pennsylvania.

Criminals don't necessarily need guns though, they can carry out armed robberies and murders with blades and in places where guns are less available that's what we see. Even if they do have guns they will be different guns like old school hunting rifles and revolvers. Right now the Americas are flooded with ARs because of the US market.

Brazil for example does have a domestic gun manufacturing market but they tend to produce pistols and pistol caliber carbines so Brazilians criminals would still rather have ARs smuggled from the US or bought off corrupt cops.

 

[mkess101]

Criminals don't necessarily need guns though, they can carry out armed robberies and murders with blades and in places where guns are less available that's what we see. Even if they do have guns they will be different guns like old school hunting rifles and revolvers. Right now the Americas are flooded with ARs because of the US market.

Brazil for example does have a domestic gun manufacturing market but they tend to produce pistols and pistol caliber carbines so Brazilians criminals would still rather have ARs smuggled from the US or bought off corrupt cops.

Yes the types of guns likely would change. The variety would lessen, the entire market would be utilitarian and the demand for designer guns would diminish.
Criminal organizations need guns to carry out a lot of what they do. Gangs aren't going to give up on getting guns and resort to just bladed weapons to protect their turf from other gangs. Why? Because if the other gang DOES get guns, they take that turf. Which means the "arms race" will still be alive and well within the criminal element. They can't afford to give up guns, or they risk losing the ability to protect their business interests.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yes the types of guns likely would change. The variety would lessen, the entire market would be utilitarian and the demand for designer guns would diminish.
Criminal organizations need guns to carry out a lot of what they do. Gangs aren't going to give up on getting guns and resort to just bladed weapons to protect their turf from other gangs. Why? Because if the other gang DOES get guns, they take that turf. Which means the "arms race" will still be alive and well within the criminal element. They can't afford to give up guns, or they risk losing the ability to protect their business interests.

There are lots of countries where low level criminals rely on blades. In Japan only the top Yakuza bodyguards carry guns because of the steep legal penalties associated with them. Low level crimes like armed robberies and murders can be done with blades. Look at the UK and how notorious it is for stabbings.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Only if is an agreement to give the time I posted to gun theft and a felon in possession of an illegal gun. Then we can talk about a fine for leaving a gun in an un locked vehicle in plain sight.

Sure, go nuts

 

[mkess101]

There are lots of countries where low level criminals rely on blades. In Japan only the top Yakuza bodyguards carry guns because of the steep legal penalties associated with them. Low level crimes like armed robberies and murders can be done with blades. Look at the UK and how notorious it is for stabbings.

That's fine, but it's ingrained in the culture of this country and it's REALLY ingrained in the criminal culture in this country. The reason guns will still be prevalent isn't from low level robberies. It's from gangs needing to protect their turf from other gangs because of how lucrative the drug trade is. You think these gangs will care about stricter gun laws when their entire way to make money will be taken from them by rival gangs that do have guns? Think about how many multiple time felons get caught with guns now, even knowing just having it means a long stretch in prison (not committing a crime with it, just "felon in possession of a firearm").

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's fine, but it's ingrained in the culture of this country and it's REALLY ingrained in the criminal culture in this country. The reason guns will still be prevalent isn't from low level robberies. It's from gangs needing to protect their turf from other gangs because of how lucrative the drug trade is. You think these gangs will care about stricter gun laws when their entire way to make money will be taken from them by rival gangs that do have guns? Think about how many multiple time felons get caught with guns now, even knowing just having it means a long stretch in prison (not committing a crime with it, just "felon in possession of a firearm").

Gun laws are not properly enforced, most of the areas of the country that have strict gun laws have lax enforcement because of "disparate impact"

If you actually enforced strict gun laws it completely changes the cost-benefit analysis of carrying a gun.

 

[mkess101]

Gun laws are not properly enforced, most of the areas of the country that have strict gun laws have lax enforcement because of "disparate impact"

If you actually enforced strict gun laws it completely changes the cost-benefit analysis of carrying a gun.

IDK...that would have an impact but now you're talking about "Hey to fix (or at least significantly lessen) the gun problem we not only need super strict gun laws everywhere...we also need far more rigid enforcement despite the narrative (right or wrong) that it unfairly impacts POC".

We're already adding caveats, it's hard for me to imagine the real world impact you're putting forward.

 

[Islam Imamate]

IDK...that would have an impact but now you're talking about "Hey to fix (or at least significantly lessen) the gun problem we not only need super strict gun laws everywhere...we also need far more rigid enforcement despite the narrative (right or wrong) that it unfairly impacts POC".

We're already adding caveats, it's hard for me to imagine the real world impact you're putting forward.

I think that's more due to your lack of imagination than anything. Like I said the UK shows us what strict gun control looks like in practice and it means low level criminals rely on their fists, blades, and blunt objects more than firearms.

 

[mkess101]

I think that's more due to your lack of imagination than anything. Like I said the UK shows us what strict gun control looks like in practice and it means low level criminals rely on their fists, blades, and blunt objects more than firearms.

It's not lack of imagination regarding the narrative here about the disproportionate effect on minorities. You were the one who pointed it out. That's a pretty big difference in cultures when comparing the UK and US. I think it's a bit naive to say "it works there, why can't it work here?"

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's not lack of imagination regarding the narrative here about the disproportionate effect on minorities. You were the one who pointed it out. That's a pretty big difference in cultures when comparing the UK and US. I think it's a bit naive to say "it works there, why can't it work here?"

The whole genesis of this conversation was my contention that banning guns in the US and cracking down on them would lead to fewer gun related crimes and would make guns far more scarce for criminals. I was never arguing that we should do this and in fact said the opposite but if you could achieve the kind of political consensus necessary to overturn the 2nd amendment you could almost certainly have enough political capital to crack down on guns in an extensive manner that would radically reduce access to firearms by criminals.

 

[mkess101]

The whole genesis of this conversation was my contention that banning guns in the US and cracking down on them would lead to fewer gun related crimes and would make guns far more scarce for criminals. I was never arguing that we should do this and in fact said the opposite but if you could achieve the kind of political consensus necessary to overturn the 2nd amendment you could almost certainly have enough political capital to crack down on guns in an extensive manner that would radically reduce access to firearms by criminals.

Ahh okay. I still disagree, but not nearly as vehemently. I think due to a variety of factors (our gun culture that has been embedded into us since essentially
our inception, the near impossibility of enforcement given the vast number of guns already in circulation, etc) the impact wouldn't be what you think even with some sort of miraculous majority willing to ban guns. But yeah, you're not ignoring the other aspects of the discussion, you're arguing this purely as a hypothetical. Fair enough.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ahh okay. I still disagree, but not nearly as vehemently. I think due to a variety of factors (our gun culture that has been embedded into us since essentially
our inception, the near impossibility of enforcement given the vast number of guns already in circulation, etc) the impact wouldn't be what you think even with some sort of miraculous majority willing to ban guns. But yeah, you're not ignoring the other aspects of the discussion, you're arguing this purely as a hypothetical. Fair enough.

Again to be clear to be able to overturn the 2nd amendment you'd need to have supermajorities in both houses of Congress and 3/4th of the state legislatures. If you could actually achieve that level of political consensus on the issue my guess is it would almost necessarily indicate a huge cultural shift in the way we think about guns.

In fairness if liberals could take back the court and overturn the Heller and McDonald rulings you could enact stricter gun control without achieving the same level of political consensus and in that case its possible we could see both stricter gun laws but also lingering cultural commitments to gun ownership and an enduring black market if gun laws varied significantly from state to state.

 

[mkess101]

Again to be clear to be able to overturn the 2nd amendment you'd need to have supermajorities in both houses of Congress and 3/4th of the state legislatures. If you could actually achieve that level of political consensus on the issue my guess is it would almost necessarily indicate a huge cultural shift in the way we think about guns.

In fairness if liberals could take back the court and overturn the Heller and McDonald rulings you could enact stricter gun control without achieving the same level of political consensus and in that case its possible we could see both stricter gun laws but also lingering cultural commitments to gun ownership and an enduring black market if gun laws varied significantly from state to state.

Yeah. You'd still have staunch holdouts in pockets even if there was some sort of massive cultural shift that allowed for a supermajority but for sure that would signal a tectonic shift of society and how we view guns.
The second scenario is more likely though.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Produced at far lower volumes with lower quality making them more expensive and less available.

The reason guns are so cheap and available for criminals now is because of the scale of consumer demand and the efficiency of US manufacturing. Remove that and guns will become more expensive, less available, and lower in quality.

Khyber Pass is the most notorious black market gun manufacturing center in the world where you can in fact buy guns for relatively cheap but only because you have to go deep into the mountains and the volume and quantity pales in comparison to what is seen in the Americas.

Ak47s and other Chinese/Russian weapons will fill the void. Africa and the Middle East are fulla weapons that didn't come from us and if there was a market for weapons that we couldn't fill ourselves I think they would step right in

Also as 3 d printing technology increases production of weapons will get easier cheaper and better.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ak47s and other Chinese/Russian weapons will fill the void. Africa and the Middle East are fulla weapons that didn't come from us and if there was a market for weapons that we couldn't fill ourselves I think they would step right in

Of course the US is not the only source of black market guns and in Eurasia guns from the former Soviet Union are still finding their way to battle fields to this day. Not to mention there's always the option of stealing or bribing arms off local police and military

But in the Americas arms smuggled from the US are a significant source of black market firearms.

Also as 3 d printing technology increases production of weapons will get easier cheaper and better.

3D printing is inherently less efficient than standard manufacturing techniques for producing arms in bulk. Its advantage is in its flexibility and lower barrier to entry but it doesn't scale nearly as well.