Law Gun and Gun Control News/Discussion

Rob Battisti said:
Okay — we’ve changed threads now. Idk what it is you’d change but I am sure it was thoughtful. Gun control is a tough thing to tackle.
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Mods wanted the gun talk over here instead.
The way I remember it we both made thoughtful points, gave a little ground and understood the others pov and then we did a sick ass Predator forearm handshake thing
 
@DoctorTaco

You're making assumptions that are unlikely to hold imo. Yes, you might have SOME teens that would've become involved in gun crimes that end up not. Maybe. But you're assuming these criminal enterprises won't find ways to get guns to where they want them. Why? Do they have a hard time getting drugs or anything else where they want it? Is street heroin or fent legal to move into the US?

Like I said to @Islam Imamate, these organizations have vast resources and any vacuum left by a reduction in guns manufactured in the US is going to be filled (at least to a large degree) by those who know they can profit off it in the black market.
 
mkess101 said:
@DoctorTaco

You're making assumptions that are unlikely to hold imo. Yes, you might have SOME teens that would've become involved in gun crimes that end up not. Maybe. But you're assuming these criminal enterprises won't find ways to get guns to where they want them. Why? Do they have a hard time getting drugs or anything else where they want it? Is street heroin or fent legal to move into the US?

Like I said to @Islam Imamate, these organizations have vast resources and any vacuum left by a reduction in guns manufactured in the US is going to be filled (at least to a large degree) by those who know they can profit off it in the black market.
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I understand getting to a flat zero for violent crimes involving guns is impossible, but I am all four working towards a reduction in these numbers. In our own country, there is a direct correlation between strict gun laws, and hair reduction in gun based Violet crime. It works, it is constitutional, so let’s scale it up on a federal level.

Gangs and criminals do not exist as a monolith. Make Guns are hard to get and less criminals will have them.
 
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oldshadow said:
I would be fine with a small fine for not locking the vehicle with guns in it. Also I support education to encourage taking other steps to secure them but not punishment for not hiding and requiring they be locked in a safe in the vehicle.

Punishment for the criminal is the first step.
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Punishment for the criminal has been the first step for a long time. Nobody is trying to take that away.
oldshadow said:
Do you want to punish rape victims for wearing reveling clothes or robbery victims for having cash.
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You yourself want to punish people for improper storage of their firearms. You said so in the post I quoted above this one so at this point, we are agreeing that it should be done and it’s now about deciding when and to whom.
 
mkess101 said:
@DoctorTaco

You're making assumptions that are unlikely to hold imo. Yes, you might have SOME teens that would've become involved in gun crimes that end up not. Maybe. But you're assuming these criminal enterprises won't find ways to get guns to where they want them. Why? Do they have a hard time getting drugs or anything else where they want it? Is street heroin or fent legal to move into the US?

Like I said to @Islam Imamate, these organizations have vast resources and any vacuum left by a reduction in guns manufactured in the US is going to be filled (at least to a large degree) by those who know they can profit off it in the black market.
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Couldn't disagree more, you're vastly underestimating the gargantuan scale of US manufacturing and consumer demand in regards to firearms and how it fuels black market access to guns. If we cracked down on guns not only would criminals in the US have severely restricted access to firearms, so would the rest of the Americas given how many guns are smuggled from here to other countries.
 
Islam Imamate said:
Couldn't disagree more, you're vastly underestimating the gargantuan scale of US manufacturing and consumer demand in regards to firearms and how it fuels black market access to guns. If we cracked down on guns not only would criminals in the US have severely restricted access to firearms, so would the rest of the Americas given how many guns are smuggled from here to other countries.
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I don't think it's something we'll ever find out (at least in our lifetimes). I think you're underestimating how creative and productive organized criminal elements can be when there's a void to fill that will make them large amounts of money. Is there a chance I'm wrong and this is the time where attacking the supply side of a problem works when it never has before? Sure, I don't have magical vision to tell me what would happen in unlikely theoreticals so I could be wrong. But we've seen how trying to cut off the supply has worked in the war on drugs. And yes gun manufacturing is a different animal but it's not like they'd be trying to build ICBM's with nuclear warheads. With billions and billions of dollars at your disposal, you can set up gun manufacturing and distribution into a black market pretty easily. And guess what the cartels have? Billions and billions of dollars.
 
mkess101 said:
I don't think it's something we'll ever find out (at least in our lifetimes). I think you're underestimating how creative and productive organized criminal elements can be when there's a void to fill that will make them large amounts of money. Is there a chance I'm wrong and this is the time where attacking the supply side of a problem works when it never has before? Sure, I don't have magical vision to tell me what would happen in unlikely theoreticals so I could be wrong. But we've seen how trying to cut off the supply has worked in the war on drugs. And yes gun manufacturing is a different animal but it's not like they'd be trying to build ICBM's with nuclear warheads. With billions and billions of dollars at your disposal, you can set up gun manufacturing and distribution into a black market pretty easily. And guess what the cartels have? Billions and billions of dollars.
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Nah, setting up a manufacturing system to rival the US' production capabilities is basically impossible for the cartels or other criminals groups.

You're right that they're creative and resourceful but given they could never hope to match the manufacturing capabilities, both in quality and quantity, of the US market high quality firearms would be significantly less available and they'd have to makeshift guns like 3D printed ones which would be far less available for low level criminals.
 
DoctorTaco said:
I understand getting to a flat zero for violent crimes involving guns is impossible, but I am all four working towards a reduction in these numbers. In our own country, there is a direct correlation between strict gun laws, and hair reduction in gun based Violet crime. It works, it is constitutional, so let’s scale it up on a federal level.

Gangs and criminals do not exist as a monolith. Make Guns are hard to get and less criminals will have them.
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Yeah I'm more skeptical that you're actually gonna make guns much harder to get for criminals. I'm all for fewer guns in the hands of criminals obviously.
 
mkess101 said:
Yeah I'm more skeptical that you're actually gonna make guns much harder to get for criminals. I'm all for fewer guns in the hands of criminals obviously.
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You don't think cracking down on the largest center of gun manufacturing and the largest consumer market for guns will affect the availability of guns? Are these guns just going to magically fall from the sky into cruel hands?
 
Islam Imamate said:
Nah, setting up a manufacturing system to rival the US' production capabilities is basically impossible for the cartels or other criminals groups.

You're right that they're creative and resourceful but given they could never hope to match the manufacturing capabilities, both in quality and quantity, of the US market high quality firearms would be significantly less available and they'd have to makeshift guns like 3D printed ones which would be far less available for low level criminals.
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Right I agree, but they wouldn't need to "match it". Because the cartels wouldn't be catering to the guy who wants to bag a buck in November with his .308
They're only catering to those who don't care about gun laws at all, because they're gonna use them to commit crimes. They wouldn't need to produce as many guns, or at the quality they currently are.
 
Islam Imamate said:
You don't think cracking down on the largest center of gun manufacturing and the largest consumer market for guns will affect the availability of guns? Are these guns just going to magically fall from the sky into cruel hands?
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See my answer to your other post. They aren't gonna fall from the sky. They're gonna be produced elsewhere. Specifically marketed for criminal organizations, not law abiding people.
 
mkess101 said:
See my answer to your other post. They aren't gonna fall from the sky. They're gonna be produced elsewhere. Specifically marketed for criminal organizations, not law abiding people.
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Produced at far lower volumes with lower quality making them more expensive and less available.
mkess101 said:
Right I agree, but they wouldn't need to "match it". Because the cartels wouldn't be catering to the guy who wants to bag a buck in November with his .308
They're only catering to those who don't care about gun laws at all, because they're gonna use them to commit crimes. They wouldn't need to produce as many guns, or at the quality they currently are.
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The reason guns are so cheap and available for criminals now is because of the scale of consumer demand and the efficiency of US manufacturing. Remove that and guns will become more expensive, less available, and lower in quality.

Khyber Pass is the most notorious black market gun manufacturing center in the world where you can in fact buy guns for relatively cheap but only because you have to go deep into the mountains and the volume and quantity pales in comparison to what is seen in the Americas.
 
Islam Imamate said:
Produced at far lower volumes with lower quality making them more expensive and less available.

The reason guns are so cheap and available for criminals now is because of the scale of consumer demand and the efficiency of US manufacturing. Remove that and guns will become more expensive, less available, and lower in quality.

Khyber Pass is the most notorious black market gun manufacturing center in the world where you can in fact buy guns for relatively cheap but only because you have to go deep into the mountains and the volume and quantity pales in comparison to what is seen in the Americas.
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Quality would suffer, demand would shrink because law abiding people won't seek out criminal organizations to buy black market guns (in general). But there WILL be a market and money to be made by catering to those who need guns for less than legal reasons.
Would criminals in some cases have to "work harder" to aquire guns? Sure, probably. But they'd need the guns, so they'll still do what they have to in order to get them. The ones who won't are the turkey hunter from Minnesota or the guy who likes to target shoot every now and then from Pennsylvania.
 
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