Got Strength Gym Question of the Week

[Jake Pudenz]

Hey everyone, here is his reply to the question on nutrition and why more frequent meals are better than the traditional three meals:

We train athletes not bodybuilders which means we are eating for high performance NOT to look good naked. There are thousands of studies supporting the fact that smaller more frequent meals improve all sorts of performance parameters for several reasons, insulin/glucose, anabolic hormones, total caloric intake, etc. Do a google scholar search on meal frequency and performance.

 

[Jake Pudenz]

meh I think any more than 2 workouts a week in season is just too much for a highschool athlete. coupled with school, homework, practices, and a weekly game, there isn't enough time to rest. The workouts should be for primarily maintenance and injury prevention. few athletes will make noticeable gains and "peak" at the end of a season.

This was my coaches response to this:

Any coach who puts their athletes on a cruise control program in-season is insane. Yes you def have to manage injuries and make modifications to the program accordingly but as long as an athlete's priorities are in check their bodies can tolerate a tremendous amount of stress (ie training, school, sporting practice, etc) If they are more concerned with chasing tail late into the night instead of getting 8 hours of sleep or if they care more about drinking beer on weekends instead of PWN then yes they may be at risk of overtraining and will struggle to increase strength and power.

 

[miaou]

Hey everyone, here is his reply to the question on nutrition and why more frequent meals are better than the traditional three meals:

We train athletes not bodybuilders which means we are eating for high performance NOT to look good naked. There are thousands of studies supporting the fact that smaller more frequent meals improve all sorts of performance parameters for several reasons, insulin/glucose, anabolic hormones, total caloric intake, etc. Do a google scholar search on meal frequency and performance.

Your coach is soliciting advice on things he doesn't know/understand.

 

[Jake Pudenz]

Your coach is soliciting advice on things he doesn't know/understand.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I know what his credentials as strength and conditioning coach are as well as his knowledge on nutrition. If you would like to contact him directly, you can email him at [email protected].

 

[miaou]

Jake, I am not trying to offend you nor disrespect you; you asked for feedback and I gave it to you. I understand you trust your coach, but that doesn't mean his is correct about this.


Your coach's claims are not based on any kind of scientific data I am aware of. I obviously have no reason to bother emailing that dude, but he is welcome to defend his position here or on D&S. I guarantee you he won't enjoy the experience though.

 

[yocan]

when I was eating 7500 calories a day, and lost 20 lbs in a season, I ate 5 meals a day, and it wasn't enough due to eating the wrong foods, and while eating them I simply could not eat enough food.

The biggest perk IMO of eating more than 3 meals a day is your entire digestive tract is less strained, its going to be smaller and your body will ostensibly use more of the food due to their being less at any time to digest. Do I think it works that way? I don't know, but I know Michael phelps eats 12000 calories a day, and I believe he eats more than 3 meals a day. and he wins everything even if he is an f'inng asshole.

If I had to choose 5 exercises I wish I had donen while in HS (I swam well pretended to run cross and track, I sucked at them both) Deadlift, Squat, Bench (dumbbell probably for safety reasons) kettle bell swings, and muscle ups. I'm sure at 174 lbs doing 27 pull ups if I had ever had the thought I could have done muscle ups, if a sixth exercise was allotable just tons of burpees.

Can't get better in season what are you smoking? At the highschool level gains are very easy to make with an intelligent coach. My coach had us do 1/3 the yards of the ones we raced against and 100% of the kids on the team by their 3rd year on the team got innto the state championships. WE ONLY SWAM IN SEASON. (except me, gabe and brad) I gained 15 lbs running cross country, first time ever really running. I went my freshman year from 57 seconds for 100 yards down to 50.17 missing the state qualifier by .67 of a second. My Jr year I went from 22.59 to 21.78 and gained 10 lbs. (yes thats very fast for a highschooler of 17 years old)

They cann get faster/bigger/stronger in season I know I did. In college its harder but can be done, I saw a few do it but not a lot I was on the 3rd best team in the country for division 2. From what I've read pro football players tend to loose weight/strength in season every year. But they are much closer to their potential weight for the activity they are doing. Very few highschoolers will achieve that in highschool.

EDIT: I would like to say my apparent thought on food was wrong. The athlete that eats the most int he world is Phelps he only eats 3 a day supposedly. The Michael Phelps Diet: Don’t Try It at Home - Health Blog - WSJ

 

[KILL KILL]

This was my coaches response to this:

Any coach who puts their athletes on a cruise control program in-season is insane. Yes you def have to manage injuries and make modifications to the program accordingly but as long as an athlete's priorities are in check their bodies can tolerate a tremendous amount of stress (ie training, school, sporting practice, etc) If they are more concerned with chasing tail late into the night instead of getting 8 hours of sleep or if they care more about drinking beer on weekends instead of PWN then yes they may be at risk of overtraining and will struggle to increase strength and power.

a football player spends most of the week recovering from the pounding from the previous game. It's time to recover, not try to hit new PR in the gym

"Our main goal is to stimulate-not annihilate. We use core and priority lifts to stimulate the large, fast twitch muscles quickly and intensely; then we let them recover. We don't perform any supplementary or secondary lifts in-season. This approach helps us maintain strength, power and explosion without spending time on less important exercises."

Barring any major injury, a football player undertaking a proper in-season training regimen should finish the season close to where he started physically. "There will be some drop-off in strength levels throughout the season-it's unavoidable with all of the contact," Lichter says. "But if you maintain 88 to 92 percent of your original strength levels, then you've done a good job."

-Eric Lichter (S&C coach for Ohio State University football)


In-Season Strength Training with Ohio State Football: STACK Magazine - Exercises, Training, Nutrition, High School Athletes

"Over the course of a football season, players will experience a decline in strength and power without continued strength training. This obviously will affect performance on the field so continuation of the strength program throughout the season is crucial for success."

-Joe Heiler


"We have already discussed how much extra work a football player faces in-season so any program must have a much reduced volume of work. The emphasis is on doing just enough to maintain the player's strength levels without causing any unnecessary extra demands."

-Reggie Johal


"Matt Leinart's in-season quarterback workout focus is on maintenance and remaining healthy throughout the season. He used this program in college and it got him the Heisman and a football national championship. Following is the in-season NFL Quarterback workout Leinart uses to stay fresh and fit."

-Todd Kreuger

NFL Quarterback in Season Weight Training Program


"A reasonable workout, one that can help your athletes maintain

 

[Jake Pudenz]

Keypoints:
1. In-Season Strength training should be a priority in order to keep performance levels
consistent.
2.The goal of the in-season program should be to maintain the strength and power
gained in the off-season.
3. It is recommended to strength train at least 2 times per week during the season.
4. Training sessions should last no longer than 1 hour in duration.
5. Volume should be decreased, not intensity. An athlete should decrease the overall
workload (sets and reps) while trying to maintain intensity. By maintaining intensity
and dropping volume an athlete

 

[PWR1982]

I'm not a nutrition expert, but even here on sherdog, 2 years ago everyone was saying how you should eat every 3 hours at least. Now it's somehow been scientifically proven that it does not in fact matter.

I don't want to offend someone who takes a scientific approach to nutrition, but I think it should be kept simple - if it makes you feel better when you eat 10 times a day, then do it. I would find it hard to have breakfast at 7am, lunch at 13pm, dinner 19pm. I don't care that by scientific research, if I have 3 big meals a day, the effect will be the same as if I have 6 smaller meals a day - I just feel better when I eat those 6 meals, and that's what matters I would say.

 

[oyaji poi]

Hey everyone, here is his reply to the question on nutrition and why more frequent meals are better than the traditional three meals:

We train athletes not bodybuilders which means we are eating for high performance NOT to look good naked. There are thousands of studies supporting the fact that smaller more frequent meals improve all sorts of performance parameters for several reasons, insulin/glucose, anabolic hormones, total caloric intake, etc. Do a google scholar search on meal frequency and performance.

I'm going to say this as plainly as I can: No, there are not thousands of studies showing this.

Asking other people to search for information to prove you right is pretty lame. I'll say there is not one study that proves smaller more frequent meals improves total caloric intake compared to fewer (say, 3 meals). All you have to do is provide one study that proves this, and I'll admit I was wrong about this. To be honest, I don't now how you could do this, all a person would have to do is eat one more calorie in 3 meals than in 6 meals and you would be wrong about this claim.

Even then, I would come back and say that there are absolutely no studies that show smaller, more frequent meals improves insulin/glucose compared to say, 3 meals. And this has to be in a population that matters to high school students, or even athletes in general, not diabetics or other people with a health problem.

In other words, there are no studies showing what was claimed. Prove me wrong, don't ask others to prove you right or take your word for it.

To be fair, you may have found that, in your experience, it is better for young athletes to consume many smaller meals throughout the day. And that's fine, respect. But don't try to bullshit others by claiming there are "thousands" of studies, or even one study, proving you right. Your experience may have shown 6 meals a day if great, but that doesn't mean 6 meals a day is the only thing that works. The only meta-analysis studies I've read show that there are no measurable health benefits to eating more, or less, frequently. Individuals may feel more comfortable eating more, or less, frequently, or it may be more convenient to their lifestyle, but there is no scientific backing for it.

I am interested in hearing about experiences coaches have with younger athletes - what they have found works, major roadblocks to their plans, etc. It's very interesting in fact. So please continue to share your stories.

 

[KILL KILL]

Keypoints:
1. In-Season Strength training should be a priority in order to keep performance levels
consistent.
2.The goal of the in-season program should be to maintain the strength and power
gained in the off-season.
3. It is recommended to strength train at least 2 times per week during the season.
4. Training sessions should last no longer than 1 hour in duration.
5. Volume should be decreased, not intensity. An athlete should decrease the overall
workload (sets and reps) while trying to maintain intensity. By maintaining intensity
and dropping volume an athlete’s neural drive is still stimulated, therefore,
maintaining strength and power.
6. An In-Season training program can help decrease the risk of injury in athletes.
7. Focus on Recovery and Regeneration following both practices and workouts."

-Jason Shea C.S.C.S., P.E.S.


Besides number two, we address all of this in our training for in-season athletes. Our in season guys are going from 6 AM to 7 AM every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. Around 30 minutes of that time is different torso, prehab and mobility exercises. The only thing we don't agree on is the fact that you can't get better in-season.

I think we can both agree that middle school and high school athletes are very different developmentally than NFL and college athletes are. This is who we work with, middle school and high school athletes. To say they can't get better in-season is ridiculous. If they are doing the right things, there is no reason they can't get stronger in-season.

Also, our training model was heavily influenced by Coach Chris Doyle's approach. He is the strength and conditioning coach for the University of Iowa and pretty highly revered in the strength and conditioning world. My coach worked with the Iowa football team for about a year and a half and that is what he took away, you have to work harder in-season and out-of-season if you want to be the best. I can tell you this much, the Coach Doyle doesn't just put their strength and conditioning on cruise control while the season is going, they still bust their asses.

I'm not argueing the fact that an athlete can get better during the season, just don't expect to hit new PR's in the gym. To try and force that is risking injury. pre-hab and mobility exercises are the way to go, but I believe the weight should be decreased on lifts.

Also, just for kicks i'm going to throw this quote in here.

"As you know, the biggest benefit of an in-season strength training program is to maintain the size and strength that you developed through out the off-season. In-season is for football and you don’t want to over burden the nervous or muscular system with too many unnecessary exercises or sets."

- Elliot Hulse (Creator of the Critical Gridiron Program)

No BS Football Strength For In-Season


and this one:

"A year-around proposition, the Scarlet Knights train to increase their strength, foot speed, hand/eye coordination, agility and flexibility during the summer and preseason. Many athletes train on campus during the summer, and those who train at home have a detailed workout plan to follow, because it is during the offseason that most of the gains are made. During the season, the program is designed to maintain the gains made in the summer and preseason. Interval training is a large part of the inseason regimen that maintains strength and conditioning while preserving the players’ energy for competition."

(From the Rutger's university website)

Rutgers Strength and Conditioning


oh hell, how about just one more.

"In Season Program:
This 1 hour long program is designed for athletes who are currently in-season but want to maintain strength, improve speed and quickness and reduce the occurrence of injury. The program focuses on movement (speed/agility/explosive power) and maintaining strength (light lift) but does not include conditioning."

-Mike Boyle (Michael Boyle is known internationally for his pioneering work in the field of Strength & Conditioning and is regarded as one of the top experts in the area for Sports Performance Training. He has made his mark on the industry over the past 30 years with an impressive following of professional athletes, from the US Women’s Olympic teams in Soccer and Ice Hockey to the Boston Bruins, Boston Breakers and New England Revolution. His client list over the years reads like a Who’s Who of athletic success in New England and across the country including legendary Boston names such as Nomar Garciaparra, Cam Neely, and Ray Bourque).

Programs | Mike Boyle Strength & Conditioning | 781-938-1330

 

[Jake Pudenz]

We know who Boyle is as Phil was an intern for him and still talks to him regularly. Like I said before, we address mobility, injury prevention and speed work in our program. The volume of our in-season athletes is much less than that of our out-of-season guys. They are limited to an hour. However, if they are eating right, getting to bed and getting their PWO shake/meal, there is no reason that middle and high school athletes can't get stronger in-season. When you get to the level of big time colleges and professional athletes, it becomes more of a game protecting their own ass so if someone does get hurt it can't be put on them.

Honestly, I feel like we are saying the same thing and the only thing we really disagree on is whether or not someone can get stronger in-season.

 

[PCP]

Boyle once advocated replacing squats with lunges and Hulse believes in fucking sleep cycling for hormones or some pseudoscience shit. They both give big-shot overpriced seminars and sell $100+ e-books, "business plans" and other shit like that on the internet. I don't give either of them any credibility.

 

[KILL KILL]

We know who Boyle is as Phil was an intern for him and still talks to him regularly. Like I said before, we address mobility, injury prevention and speed work in our program. The volume of our in-season athletes is much less than that of our out-of-season guys. They are limited to an hour. However, if they are eating right, getting to bed and getting their PWO shake/meal, there is no reason that middle and high school athletes can't get stronger in-season. When you get to the level of big time colleges and professional athletes, it becomes more of a game protecting their own ass so if someone does get hurt it can't be put on them.

Honestly, I feel like we are saying the same thing and the only thing we really disagree on is whether or not someone can get stronger in-season.

again, I'm not saying you CAN'T gain strength during the season. What I am debating is the emphasis your coach puts on gaining strength during the season. he says he wasnts his athletes to "peak" at the end of the season. The only way to get stronger is to increase weight on lifts correct? This is where we differ. I believe it is asking too much of the body to do so and can impair performance come game time. Especially 3 lifting sessions a week. I have listed many sources saying the same. the emphasis should be on maintenance and injury prevention. the main focus should be on football not hitting new PR's in the gym.

Just for kicks again, I will post another site backing my arguement of maintenance.

"Compared to the substantial pre-season preparation phase this should be a walk in the park!
The objective is to maintain all the gains resulting from your hard work over the previous 6 months or so."
12-Month Periodized Football Training Program


I'll just give you the link to this. Joe Defranco uses the word "maintain" or "mainenance" while talking about in-season training like 12 times in 3 paragraphs.

DeFranco's Training - Ask Joe 10.03.03

 

[KILL KILL]

Boyle once advocated replacing squats with lunges and Hulse believes in fucking sleep cycling for hormones or some pseudoscience shit. They both give big-shot overpriced seminars and sell $100+ e-books, "business plans" and other shit like that on the internet. I don't give either of them any credibility.

hmmm I'll have to look into this claim of sleep cycling pseudoscience. I severely dislike mumbo jumbo that is not backed with facts

 

[Jake Pudenz]

We aren't big on numbers. We do test but we don't put a lot of weight on the numbers that we get. The only numbers that we really care about are playing time, tackles, stolen bases, takedowns, etc.

Here is how we can tell when our guys are getting stronger in-season. When we speed squat, we have a power factor unit that calculates how many watts per pound are produced relative to the athlete's body weight. If some athlete gets a high of 6.7 w/lb one day, if in a few weeks when we throw in speed squats again he/she gets a high of 7.2 w/lb, he is stronger and more powerful than he was a few weeks ago.

When our in-season guys come in, we don't tell them to load up the bar three days a week. We have them go based on how they feel. Like one of your earlier quotes said, the sessions should reduce in volume but not intensity. If one athlete is really feeling it one day, who are we to tell him that he can't keep going as long as his form is holding up?

 

[KILL KILL]

We aren't big on numbers. We do test but we don't put a lot of weight on the numbers that we get. The only numbers that we really care about are playing time, tackles, stolen bases, takedowns, etc.

Here is how we can tell when our guys are getting stronger in-season. When we speed squat, we have a power factor unit that calculates how many watts per pound are produced relative to the athlete's body weight. If some athlete gets a high of 6.7 w/lb one day, if in a few weeks when we throw in speed squats again he/she gets a high of 7.2 w/lb, he is stronger and more powerful than he was a few weeks ago.

When our in-season guys come in, we don't tell them to load up the bar three days a week. We have them go based on how they feel. Like one of your earlier quotes said, the sessions should reduce in volume but not intensity. If one athlete is really feeling it one day, who are we to tell him that he can't keep going as long as his form is holding up?

I fail to see how that system guarantees "peaking" at the end of the season. Who are you to tell them not to continue??? If you're the S&C coach that literally is your job. Basing their training on how a middle schooler "feels" is a crappy way to guage how their workout will go and an easy way to overtrain. You're supposed to be the educated one, not them.

 

[KILL KILL]

I think I'm going to discontinue this arguement. We can just agree to disagree.

 

[Fedorable]

We aren't big on numbers. We do test but we don't put a lot of weight on the numbers that we get. The only numbers that we really care about are playing time, tackles, stolen bases, takedowns, etc.

wow, that sounds like a cool sport.

 

[Fedorable]

I think the coach saying to eat a lot of meals is a good idea, regardless of the science behind it, just eat a lot if you are a young kid. I think going by feel isn't ideal for getting stronger and using guidelines is better, most people don't know their limits. I would agree not to push it if the kid isn't feeling good or is worn out.