Law GOP wants to ban birth control, except for legally married couples only

[GearSolidMetal]

No, not everyone. I read it too.

Ok, fine.

Is @StoneColdSteveAustin gonna come in here and claim to have read it?

 

[KnightTemplar]

Not sure why you’re upset by this. I see you on here advocating for government control of medical procedures daily.

 

[Mark McMichael]

My opinion is that there is a huge difference between doing something accidentally and on purpose. I think it would be way out of line to tell someone they can not do physical exercise if there is any chance of a pregnancy.

Sure but are you ok getting in to an area of "i am not sure if you have a fertilized egg in you or not, so just in case I will use the force of law to dictate what you cannot or cannot do with your own body'?

A type of 'preventative approach' that protects the 'chance of life' should it be there, or not?

 

[Mark McMichael]

Ok, fine.

Is @StoneColdSteveAustin gonna come in here and claim to have read it?

More importantly do you understand what he said in that post and why Dem's and everyone else should rightly be concerned about all unenumerated rights being on the table if RvW is ended using that reasoning?


I mean it is fine if your view (guess) is that no State will use it to challenge other rights like Interracial Marriage, Birth Control, Anal sex, Gay Marriage, etc and if you think they will not go there, but that door is thrown wide open with this ruling.

If any State wanted to challenge any of those things after RvW fall, a defense of court using the precedent of other unenumerated rights being upheld and this being along the same reasoning and thus it should stand too, would now fail as the governing precedent would now be argued that no such unenumerated rights exists, and a case by case basis tied to the country's' founding intended them to be protected.

We can guess that States might lose those other battles but it would almost have to be by establishing a NEW basis for those things to stand up.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

More importantly do you understand what he said in that post and why Dem's and everyone else should rightly be concerned about all unenumerated rights being on the table if RvW is ended using that reasoning?


I mean it is fine if your view (guess) is that no State will use it to challenge other rights like Interracial Marriage, Birth Control, Anal sex, Gay Marriage, etc and if you think they will not go there, but that door is thrown wide open with this ruling.

If any State wanted to challenge any of those things after RvW fall, a defense of court using the precedent of other unenumerated rights being upheld and this being along the same reasoning and thus it should stand too, would now fail as the governing precedent would now be argued that no such unenumerated rights exists, and a case by case basis tied to the country's' founding intended them to be protected.

We can guess that States might lose those other battles but it would almost have to be by establishing a NEW basis for those things to stand up.

Well, I did ask if anyone was stupid enough to believe everything in the OP.

Found one.

 

[IamStryker]

@IamStryker

You guys are both half right.

Plan B stops an egg from being released thus preventing fertilization. At that point, it's just contraception. But it also prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, which would be the process that the pro-life crowd would oppose.

This debate became so dependent on definitions that I decided to get some timelines. According the Cleveland Clinic, pregnancy begins the first week of the law menstrual cycle. Fertilization and conception takes place in the fallopian tubes about 2 weeks after that. Physiological and chemical changes occur from the moment of fertilization. Then the fertilized egg leaves the fallopian tubes and attaches to the uterus.

So depending on when Plan B is taken, it can either prevent an egg from ever being fertilized or it can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. That's what their website says, at least. I found that interesting since I had no real idea how the drug worked.

Yes this was my understanding as well. Thanks.

 

[IamStryker]

Sure but are you ok getting in to an area of "i am not sure if you have a fertilized egg in you or not, so just in case I will use the force of law to dictate what you cannot or cannot do with your own body'?

A type of 'preventative approach' that protects the 'chance of life' should it be there, or not?

That sounds over the line like the exercise example I gave.

 

[BFoe]

@IamStryker

You guys are both half right.

Plan B stops an egg from being released thus preventing fertilization. At that point, it's just contraception. But it also prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, which would be the process that the pro-life crowd would oppose.

This debate became so dependent on definitions that I decided to get some timelines. According the Cleveland Clinic, pregnancy begins the first week of the law menstrual cycle. Fertilization and conception takes place in the fallopian tubes about 2 weeks after that. Physiological and chemical changes occur from the moment of fertilization. Then the fertilized egg leaves the fallopian tubes and attaches to the uterus.

So depending on when Plan B is taken, it can either prevent an egg from ever being fertilized or it can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. That's what their website says, at least. I found that interesting since I had no real idea how the drug worked.

Yes this was my understanding as well. Thanks.

Half right??
Look, I’ll split this like, 80-20 with @IamStryker but that’s the best I can do

Seriously though, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but there’s a misunderstanding here. What Cleveland Clinic actually says is that pregnancy is counted from the date of last menstrual cycle. In other words, they use that to determine a woman’s due date. But that is still 2 weeks before conception (according to Cleveland Clinic). No woman is actually pregnant then.

From Very Well Family:
“The medical community, including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the National Institutes of Health, agrees that a person is not pregnant until implantation has occurred. Medically speaking, successful implantation (not fertilization or conception) equals the start of a pregnancy.”

From flo.health:
“In order for you to be pregnant, your embryo needs to implant successfully into the uterine lining, which has thickened for this purpose between your last period and ovulation.”

I don’t mean to sound stubborn, but implantation=pregnancy. Not before.

 

[panamaican]

Half right??
Look, I’ll split this like, 80-20 with @IamStryker but that’s the best I can do

Seriously though, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but there’s a misunderstanding here. What Cleveland Clinic actually says is that pregnancy is counted from the date of last menstrual cycle. In other words, they use that to determine a woman’s due date. But that is still 2 weeks before conception (according to Cleveland Clinic). No woman is actually pregnant then.

From Very Well Family:
“The medical community, including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the National Institutes of Health, agrees that a person is not pregnant until implantation has occurred. Medically speaking, successful implantation (not fertilization or conception) equals the start of a pregnancy.”

From flo.health:
“In order for you to be pregnant, your embryo needs to implant successfully into the uterine lining, which has thickened for this purpose between your last period and ovulation.”

I don’t mean to sound stubborn, but implantation=pregnancy. Not before.

Yeah but that's not how pro-life defines the beginning of life. They define it from fertilization, not from implantation. And the fertilized egg would implant but for the intervention. I don't share their perspective on when life begins but they're not wrong to view Plan B the way they do, given how it works. It feels a little bit like stopping someone from grabbing a parachute before they jump out of a plane and then saying that we didn't kill them, jumping out of the plane is what killed them.

 

[BFoe]

Yeah but that's not how pro-life defines the beginning of life. They define it from fertilization, not from implantation. And the fertilized egg would implant but for the intervention. I don't share their perspective on when life begins but they're not wrong to view Plan B the way they do, given how it works. It feels a little bit like stopping someone from grabbing a parachute before they jump out of a plane and then saying that we didn't kill them, jumping out of the plane is what killed them.

Oh, I agree that’s how pro-life would define it. I think my characterization that it was consistent with their philosophy, but didn’t make much sense outside of that, was fair.

 

[eighterumg5]

The GOP is in support of capital punishment for child murderers and rapists. If you allow this they will reinstate slavery!!!! Am I doing right?

I wish my state would reinstate capital punishment. Some don't deserve life anymore

 

[gluehuffer1776]

Ok, fine.

Is @StoneColdSteveAustin gonna come in here and claim to have read it?

yes

 

[horc00]

 

[IamStryker]

Half right??
Look, I’ll split this like, 80-20 with @IamStryker but that’s the best I can do

Seriously though, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but there’s a misunderstanding here. What Cleveland Clinic actually says is that pregnancy is counted from the date of last menstrual cycle. In other words, they use that to determine a woman’s due date. But that is still 2 weeks before conception (according to Cleveland Clinic). No woman is actually pregnant then.

From Very Well Family:
“The medical community, including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and the National Institutes of Health, agrees that a person is not pregnant until implantation has occurred. Medically speaking, successful implantation (not fertilization or conception) equals the start of a pregnancy.”

From flo.health:
“In order for you to be pregnant, your embryo needs to implant successfully into the uterine lining, which has thickened for this purpose between your last period and ovulation.”

I don’t mean to sound stubborn, but implantation=pregnancy. Not before.

Full disclosure here. I get really bored with semantics and definitions. I do not care where people decide you are "pregnant". It makes zero difference to the pro life argument.

 

[BFoe]

Full disclosure here. I get really bored with semantics and definitions. I do not care where people decide you are "pregnant". It makes zero difference to the pro life argument.

Well it’s not semantics. Basically all medical professionals say pregnancy is one thing, and pro-lifers choose to believe it’s a different thing. What I would ask is that these people not pass legislation that forces women to live under their definition, and instead allow them their individual liberty to make their own reproductive choices.

 

[IamStryker]

Well it’s not semantics. Basically all medical professionals say pregnancy is one thing, and pro-lifers choose to believe it’s a different thing. What I would ask is that these people not pass legislation that forces women to live under their definition, and instead allow them their individual liberty to make their own reproductive choices.

Your entire argument is that you cant have an abortion if there is no pregnancy. The word pregnant is not defined solely on the pro life standard of when life begins. This is obvious and very boring.

 

[Goatenstein]

Christian bigots forcing their mythology on non-incest people.

 

[IamStryker]

Christian bigots forcing their mythology on non-incest people.

Yeah only Christian's think killing the unborn children is wrong. Brilliant.

"Non incest"? Wtf?

 

[idrankyourbeer]

ahh the GOP the self-proclaimed party of pro-life. lately theyve been crying about brandon feeding babies instead of starving them to death.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/marj...rmula-immigration_n_627d4f7ce4b016d742f8c7e2#

we're seeing the conservative hierarchical mindset in action. this is a situation where they can't even use the excuse that the people they're talking about made bad life choices. they're babies. these republicans see one set of babies as being more deserving of being fed than another solely because of which group they happen to belong to as a circumstance of their birth.

 

[BFoe]

Your entire argument is that you cant have an abortion if there is no pregnancy. The word pregnant is not defined solely on the pro life standard of when life begins. This is obvious and very boring.

I agree we’re at a stalemate and there’s nothing more to be gained here. We have established that you are in favor of doing exactly what this thread title states, which is to try and deny certain types of contraception to women.

Bottom line:
-Medical professionals and the FDA say Plan B is contraception.
-You and other pro lifers disagree and refuse to accept the medical and scientific viewpoint.
-You and other pro-lifers want to force this misunderstanding onto others’ personal choices by law.

End of story.