good karate techniques

[shincheckin]

Furthermore, if you really think kata is that important, you can consider shadowboxing to be kata. It satisfies all the same requirements (and more, imo). You are also allowed to practice the same combos over and over if you like. Kata, as argued by karate practitioners on this very board is equivalent to shadowboxing. It's just fixed shadowboxing, they say.

There you have it. Shin's karate will have kata and be kata-based one way or another.

i recall that thread, saw the point of view and agreed with it. I can see the benefit of a "shadow boxing kata" as simply repeating the combination again and again in shadow boxing until its ingrained, and I view it as beneficial. Fixed shadow boxing I feel is a good thing.

 

[shincheckin]

thats also why i made the kata/wai khru comparisons.

you dont need to know a kata to learn karate and fight karate

just as you dont need to learn the wai khru to fight muay thai

yes kata is apart of karate, its history, ranking, and testing, but its not needed to fight karate. and if you are only after learning effective karate techniques to use in a fight, no kata is needed. and again the same could be said for muay thai, the wai khru is apart of its history and culture, but its not needed to learn effective muay thai techniques and fight muay thai......and yes some gyms use the wai khru as a sort of grading system. Further more, you dont need to know how to do the wai khru to teach effective muay thai techniques.

 

[William Huggins]

thats also why i made the kata/wai khru comparisons.

you dont need to know a kata to learn karate and fight karate

just as you dont need to learn the wai khru to fight muay thai

yes kata is apart of karate, its history, ranking, and testing, but its not needed to fight karate. and if you are only after learning effective karate techniques to use in a fight, no kata is needed. and again the same could be said for muay thai, the wai khru is apart of its history and culture, but its not needed to learn effective muay thai techniques and fight muay thai......and yes some gyms use the wai khru as a sort of grading system. Further more, you dont need to know how to do the wai khru to teach effective muay thai techniques.

That's not true, you need at least 5 years to train it, in it's basic form, they don't let you do the Hadoken special ending until the 7th year, without a good dance.....oops I mean wai khru ram muay, your not going to win at high level.......

 

[shincheckin]

That's not true, you need at least 5 years to train it, in it's basic form, they don't let you do the Hadoken special ending until the 7th year, without a good dance.....oops I mean wai khru ram muay, your not going to win at high level.......

if your trainer send you to the eternal pit of destiny located atop majesty mountain where you must learn all how to say kick in all languages on earth. Only than, will you have a chance at beating tong po in the kumite.

 

[William Huggins]

if your trainer send you to the eternal pit of destiny located atop majesty mountain where you must learn all how to say kick in all languages on earth. Only than, will you have a chance at beating tong po in the kumite.

First you must complete the 1000 banana tree kumite and defeat the great mixed race warrior monk Payak ( half Issan prostitute, half farang).

 

[William Huggins]

Don't forget my Thai green curry and Thai mango salad........

 

[shincheckin]

First you must complete the 1000 banana tree kumite and defeat the great mixed race warrior monk Payak ( half Issan prostitute, half farang).

pffff.......sounds like a McThai Gym

 

[William Huggins]

pffff.......sounds like a McThai Gym

 

[shincheckin]

View attachment 496065

domt forget waiting tables blindfolded, catching goldfish blindfolded, and fighting blind folded. or maybe its because im not a tanaka!!!!



ancient thai training techniques to enlightenment, level grand master

 

[Azam]

thats also why i made the kata/wai khru comparisons.

you dont need to know a kata to learn karate and fight karate

just as you dont need to learn the wai khru to fight muay thai

yes kata is apart of karate, its history, ranking, and testing, but its not needed to fight karate. and if you are only after learning effective karate techniques to use in a fight, no kata is needed. and again the same could be said for muay thai, the wai khru is apart of its history and culture, but its not needed to learn effective muay thai techniques and fight muay thai......and yes some gyms use the wai khru as a sort of grading system. Further more, you dont need to know how to do the wai khru to teach effective muay thai techniques.

Dude I'm definitely all for you learning Karate. It would mean there is another karate poster in the standup forum. So all props to you if you want to learn/teach it - just do it the right way.

But kata & wai khru are not remotely similar. One is a physical library of the karate syllabus - the other is a means of respect/honoring your teacher etc.

You need to know kata to learn karate. All the technique when you fight karate are from kata. It's literally a library of karate techniques and how to use them.

Karate has a significantly larger amount of techniques to learn compared to MT. The syllabus is cluttered/complex with a huge array of techniques that need to be learnt. There are pros and cons to having a syllabus like that. Kata is almost like having a mental library of how those other strikes/stances/throws etc are meant to be used/applied or how they are meant to work.

All the basic fundamentals in Karate are learned with the aide of kata. It's not something you can remove from Karate because it's an integral part of it.

If you wanted to get a black belt in Kyokushin Karate you'd have to learn an upwards of 20+ kata to get there.


Do you need to learn them to be able to fight Karate?

Take it from someone who has gone through the process and many others: yes.

Anyone who's ever learnt the Taikyoku katas as a beginner will understand why I mean and why it is needed - especially for building fundamentals for beginners/intermediates and why it's needs to be learnt and passed on.

 

[Tayski]

Dude I'm definitely all for you learning Karate. It would mean there is another karate poster in the standup forum. So all props to you if you want to learn/teach it - just do it the right way.

But kata & wai khru are not remotely similar. One is a physical library of the karate syllabus - the other is a means of respect/honoring your teacher etc.

You need to know kata to learn karate. All the technique when you fight karate are from kata. It's literally a library of karate techniques and how to use them.

Karate has a significantly larger amount of techniques to learn compared to MT. The syllabus is cluttered/complex with a huge array of techniques that need to be learnt. There are pros and cons to having a syllabus like that. Kata is almost like having a mental library of how those other strikes/stances/throws etc are meant to be used/applied or how they are meant to work.

All the basic fundamentals in Karate are learned with the aide of kata. It's not something you can remove from Karate because it's an integral part of it.

If you wanted to get a black belt in Kyokushin Karate you'd have to learn an upwards of 20+ kata to get there.


Do you need to learn them to be able to fight Karate?

Take it from someone who has gone through the process and many others: yes.

Anyone who's ever learnt the Taikyoku katas as a beginner will understand why I mean and why it is needed - especially for building fundamentals for beginners/intermediates and why it's needs to be learnt and passed on.

You're wasting your time, he's just trying to be an ignorant prick. He doesn't know anything about Karate and thinks "fighting Karate" is what it's all about while Kata is optional. With that mindset no wonder why there are so many mcdojos in the States and why Americans suck at Karate.

 

[Tayski]

Sorry for ignoring your argument, I thought it was a respectable enough opinion that I didn't want to inflame you directly by challenging it but it sounds like you want that so I'll give them. Karate this day and age is not traditional. It's a derivative of a derivative of a derivative of a derivative and so on. Some of the branches pretend to be traditional but it's more of a "theme" than a truth or a reality. Karate today has been formed by various individuals with their own individual ideas for what karate should be, in their minds. It has changed every generation, and especially in the beginning generations, long ago where Funakoshi agreed to teach a fake version (which correspondingly resembled Tai Chi) of Okinawan Karate to the Japanese soldiers in order to spare his own life.

Not all karate is kata based, even many of the kinds which have kata, like the various branches of Kenpo/Kempo, they have kata but they don't insist that it is the core of their usefulness. Sport karate has little or no kata, it's still karate by the definition that has been set decades ago, so imo you are chasing a long-lost crusade. It's like sending a few guys wearing plate armor and horses into Jerusalem to deal with Saracens in 2019. It's long since been settled and your own karate community has let it happen.

People are allowed to make their own style/branch of karate, just like they do with boxing or kickboxing. Everything is becoming integrated due to MMA, which I think is a good thing. If the odd 1-in-8-million parent wants ultra-traditional teaching for their toddler, they know where to get it-- they're not going to find it in the US or most other places.

It's not so much that I was insisting on having your opinion, but more that you ignored the points made while trying to defend him.

Karate this day and age is traditional. Maybe in the US it's different in a lot of dojos but that doesn't mean you should just choose to go with the diluted version of Karate that's available out there. In Europe, Russia, Okinawa, Japan etc. Karate is still very much traditional in the sense that the syllabus are respected and the classes are run the way they should. Before you ask how do we know? We know because wherever you travel the classes will be run the same way, I can go to Japan to a dojo of the style of Karate I practice and the class will have the same structure, same terminology for the techniques, counting, and a lot of similarity in the drills.

You say not all karate is kata based, but actually it very much is. Kata is part of Karate. There is only one style of Karate I can think of which got rid of Katas and that's an MMA-hybrid that many don't consider Karate anymore, even its practitioners themselves like @Azam . All the other styles of Karate have Kata and it's part of the syllabus.

If by Sport Karate you mean the Karate in long shiny pants and boxing gloves it's essentially like Kickboxing and not real Karate anymore, and even they do have Kata. If you mean sport karate like the WKF then those dojos still have syllabus and are very strict about Kata for training and grading.

Again, saying is a lost crusade might be true about the States but not anywhere else, and that doesn't mean you should give the free card for anyone to do whatever they want with the name Karate. Not that they can't do it if they want to, but you can't just say it's fine and normal because it just isn't.

Furthermore, if you really think kata is that important, you can consider shadowboxing to be kata. It satisfies all the same requirements (and more, imo). You are also allowed to practice the same combos over and over if you like. Kata, as argued by karate practitioners on this very board, is equivalent to shadowboxing. It's just fixed shadowboxing, they say.

I'm not saying Kata is "that important", even though many would argue it is, however it is part of Karate training and cannot be replaced by shadowboxing. Otherwise you might as well train American Style Kickboxing (Kickboxing with the shiny pants) which is essentially Karate kicks and punches + Western boxing without Kihon and Kata, and with shadow boxing.

Also I'd take a guess and say you have never practiced kata if you think it's the same as shadow boxing. It has many things you will not find in shadow boxing, while shadow boxing has other benefits that kata doesn't.​

 

[shincheckin]

You're wasting your time, he's just trying to be an ignorant prick. He doesn't know anything about Karate and thinks "fighting Karate" is what it's all about while Kata is optional. With that mindset no wonder why there are so many mcdojos in the States and why Americans suck at Karate.

I understand that kata is a big part of karate. But if fighting karate is what your all about, you dont need to learn katas to fight karate...........you might need to learn katas to learn karate....but you dont need to learn katas to learn to fight karate..........so yeah if all you care about is fighting, then no you dont need katas...........yes if you want to truly dive into karate with all its history, culture, rankings and all the other stuff you talk about than yeah you need it.............so no i dont think fighting karate is what karate is all about............fighting karate is what I am all about.

there is a difference

you just missed it because you got your karate pannies in a bunch that I rather learn karate fighting tehcniques than karate dance techniques.

 

[shincheckin]

you dont need to learn katas to fight karate just like you dont need to learn the wai khru to fight muay thai

you might need to learn katas to LEARN karate..........but you dont need to learn katas to FIGHT karate


@Tayski

but the wai khru and kata are totally different because katas are part of its history and grading system...........that doesnt change the fact you dont need to know either, to fight MT or Karate, these are facts. No matter how much you love karate, you cannot deny that you dont need kata to fight karate.

FACTS

 

[Tayski]

you dont need to learn katas to fight karate just like you dont need to learn the wai khru to fight muay thai

you might need to learn katas to LEARN karate..........but you dont need to learn katas to FIGHT karate


@Tayski

but the wai khru and kata are totally different because katas are part of its history and grading system...........that doesnt change the fact you dont need to know either, to fight MT or Karate, these are facts. No matter how much you love karate, you cannot deny that you dont need kata to fight karate.

FACTS

I understand that kata is a big part of karate. But if fighting karate is what your all about, you dont need to learn katas to fight karate...........you might need to learn katas to learn karate....but you dont need to learn katas to learn to fight karate..........so yeah if all you care about is fighting, then no you dont need katas...........yes if you want to truly dive into karate with all its history, culture, rankings and all the other stuff you talk about than yeah you need it.............so no i dont think fighting karate is what karate is all about............fighting karate is what I am all about.

there is a difference

you just missed it because you got your karate pannies in a bunch that I rather learn karate fighting tehcniques than karate dance techniques.

You don't understand anything but act like a know-it-all, you come across as a joke. We could have had an interesting discussion but you choose to act like an arrogant piece of shit.

As said in the other thread I'm not gonna waste any more of my time and energy going through detailed explanations with someone so ignorant, disrespectful and on the edge of idiotic.

The day you understand that Karate isn't just a fight sport we might be able to have a discussion, until then good luck being a scam.

No need to tag me or reply anymore, I'm not interested.

 

[shincheckin]

You don't understand anything but act like a know-it-all, you come across as a joke. We could have had an interesting discussion but you choose to act like an arrogant piece of shit.

As said in the other thread I'm not gonna waste any more of my time and energy going through detailed explanations with someone so ignorant, disrespectful and on the edge of idiotic.

The day you understand that Karate isn't just a fight sport we might be able to have a discussion, until then good luck being a scam.

No need to tag me or reply anymore, I'm not interested.

whatever you say will never change the fact you dont need kata to FIGHT karate

FIGHT karate vs LEARN karate = 2 different things.

just like how KB and Karate are 2 different things and a KB instructor should not be teaching karate.........nor should a karate instructor be teaching KB.