Tech Gaming Hardware discussion (& Hardware Sales) thread

[KaNesDeath]

In case anyone hasnt seen. GPU sales in Q3 of 2022 hit a 20 year low.

Hoping the trend continues for Q4 so AMD and Nvidia come back to reality.

 

[Blayt7hh]

In case anyone hasnt seen. GPU sales in Q3 of 2022 hit a 20 year low.

Hoping the trend continues for Q4 so AMD and Nvidia come back to reality.

I mean I hope so, but I’m not so optimistic that that is what is happening. We did discuss it a few weeks ago in this thread.

I’m not sure I trust that graph either. Where did you find it? It’s not even labeled on the side. What is that 0-30 number? Also I am surprised that there is no sales peak at all during the 3000 series run.

I’m surprised because it was an almost 2 year period where you couldn’t find a graphics card anywhere. So the only way yo explain that figure is that they didn’t make more to sell, and I just don’t think that’s true.

 

[Madmick]

I mean I hope so, but I’m not so optimistic that that is what is happening. We did discuss it a few weeks ago in this thread.

I’m not sure I trust that graph either. Where did you find it? It’s not even labeled on the side. What is that 0-30 number? Also I am surprised that there is no sales peak at all during the 3000 series run.

I’m surprised because it was an almost 2 year period where you couldn’t find a graphics card anywhere. So the only way yo explain that figure is that they didn’t make more to sell, and I just don’t think that’s true.

He pulled it from Tom's Hardware:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/sales-of-desktop-graphics-cards-hit-20-year-low

This is the situation. GPU sales are down across the board. That's not just true for new cards or flagships. That's all of them. Globally. Despite the crash in prices we've seen post-Crypto. I mentioned this earlier. NVIDIA obviously projected this downturn. That's why they released two new cards at a historically high price, and almost certainly with a historically high profit margin. Knowing that late 2022 would see this downturn, they figured out their best strategy to maximize profit yield was to increase the profit per unit.

This is why stocks are out nearly across the board. Because they aren't producing the same number of xx80 units as with past generations. That was never the strategy. Again, I'm yet to hear how this contradicts the truth that stocks are sold out, selling out far north of MSRP, and as just demonstrated, even selling out rapidly at sampled Microcenter locations. They might be grossly overpriced, but they're moving at that price.

 

[AWilder]

Can't blame a dude for hoping prices come down.

 

[Blayt7hh]

He pulled it from Tom's Hardware:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/sales-of-desktop-graphics-cards-hit-20-year-low

I’m not sure if you’re trying to restart this fight but literally no one ever said Nvidia wasn’t trying to maximize its profits by selling their cards for as much as they thought they could get away with.

 

[Madmick]

I’m not sure if you’re trying to restart this fight but literally no one ever said Nvidia wasn’t trying to maximize its profits by selling their cards for as much as they thought they could get away with.

Our original dispute stemmed from your objection to my contention that there wasn't an excruciating inability to sell the inventory that NVIDIA is producing. This isn't a fight, I have no emotional attachment to this, don't take this personally. I simpy urged you to focus on hard data, not trending feel-good rumors about how the scalpers are all losing their asses on the RTX 4000 series. Conversely, this more recent chart is an example of Tom's Hardware conveying data. That's why I focused on indications of average pricing, premiums over typical original retail pricing targets (yes, even for AICs), the fact so many retailers were out of stock, and how quickly inventories were turning over.

It isn't that the 4080 is a market juggernaut. It's going to be move fewer units than even the RTX 2080 did, I suspect. For example, the most significant analysis of hard sales data tech sites like Tom's Hardware shared in previous months was that the 4090 is moving about 4x as many units as the 4080 on eBay. That's a big deal because the 4090, unlike RTX 3000 series cards, is also well north of $1K. This is why even with the premiums above retail pricing I highlighted, the scalpers--after eBay takes their cut-- are just breaking even. That's why scalpers have no incentive to sell them, and probably sought to dump them back onto Newegg, resulting in Newegg deciding they weren't interested in selling the same cards twice. Meanwhile, unfortunately, despite its similarly exorbitant pricing, those scalpers are still probably making a modest profit on 4090's, due to a more disproportionate demand relative to supply, and that's why they continue to buy 4090's to re-sell them on resale markets like eBay.

Similarly, I am not optimistic that @KaNesDeath's inference the downturn in sales is about the rising MSRPs is accurate. It's hard to tell. After all, as you can see, the latest crash in sales preceded the launch of the latest GPUs, and the general downward slope persists not just across recent years, but across a whole decade. Further complicating attempts to deduce factors of the sales depression is that the sales throughout the pandemic were constrained by many contributing bottlenecks to raw production. Because, as you mentioned, thanks in large part to the cryptoboom, it wasn't demand that was in a shortage despite the elevated MSRPs. Resale pricing was insane during the pandemic.

Compounding all of this is that-- while PC gaming is more popular than ever-- the requirements for discrete desktop GPUs to effectively game has never been lower relative to mainstream hardware. This was never a small part of the market, either, btw. There were numerous months where the Intel HD series was the most popular "GPU" on the Steam survey 7-9 years ago. Now these iGPUs are more powerful than ever. And they aren't just in office-targeted desktops, they're in the new rising dominant class of casual desktops, which is the "AIO" class (where the computer is just a display with all the parts inside of it). Those AIOs use the same processors as laptops. Meanwhile, gaming laptops have never been more capable, or affordable, and their sales aren't tracked in that chart. Next, discrete GPUs themselves are aging out more slowly than ever as relevant to gaming minimums. No need to upgrade. Finally, 2020 just saw the release of a new console generation for the first time in 7 years (notice the dip post-2013).

You and I are on the same side. Kane's not wrong, both companies are being greedy, but NVIDIA is being way greedier, and as the market leader, they are the ones who are price-setting. They're in the driver's seat. We all want them to suffer. I'm just not convinced they're losing their ass, here. Unfortunately, there's been some wrenches in the rollout of the 7900 XTX, partly because AMD oversold, and also because the reference cards have had some issues. Because of that, despite the 4080's poor reception, I'm not optimistic the 7900 XTX will become the first AMD competitor to gain a larger share on that Steam survey than its direct competitor.

TLDR, if you want to hold me to a prediction to say "I told you so, Madmick, you were wrong", hold me to that. I believe the 4080 will maintain a larger share on the Steam survey than the 7900 XTX throughout their lives. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong. We're both rooting for the underdog.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Our original dispute stemmed from your objection to my contention that there wasn't an excruciating inability to sell the inventory that NVIDIA is producing. This isn't a fight, I have no emotional attachment to this, don't take this personally. I simpy urged you to focus on hard data, not trending feel-good rumors about how the scalpers are all losing their asses on the RTX 4000 series. Conversely, this more recent chart is an example of Tom's Hardware conveying data. That's why I focused on indications of average pricing, premiums over typical original retail pricing targets (yes, even for AICs), the fact so many retailers were out of stock, and how quickly inventories were turning over.

It isn't that the 4080 is a market juggernaut. It's going to be move fewer units than even the RTX 2080 did, I suspect. For example, the most significant analysis of hard sales data tech sites like Tom's Hardware shared in previous months was that the 4090 is moving about 4x as many units as the 4080 on eBay. That's a big deal because the 4090, unlike RTX 3000 series cards, is also well north of $1K. This is why even with the premiums above retail pricing I highlighted the scalpers, after eBay takes their cut, are just breaking even. That's why they scalpers have no incentive to sell them, and probably sought to dump them back onto Newegg, likely teh cause resulting in Newegg deciding they weren't interested in selling the same cards twice. Meanwhile, unfortunately, despite its similarly exorbitant pricing, those scalpers are still probably making a modest profit on 4090's, due to a more disproportionate demand relative to supply, and that's why they continue to buy 4090's to re-sell them on resale markets like eBay.

Similarly, I am not optimistic that @KaNesDeath's inference the downturn in sales is about the rising MSRPs is accurate. It's hard to tell. After all, as you can see, the latest crash in sales preceded the launch of the latest GPUs, and the general downward slope persists not just across recent years, but across a whole decade. Further complicating attempts to deduce factors of the sales depression is that the sales throughout the pandemic were constrained by many contributing bottlenecks to raw production. Because, as you mentioned, thanks in large part to the cryptoboom, it wasn't demand that was in a shortage despite the elevated MSRPs. Resale pricing was insane during the pandemic.

Compounding all of this is that, while PC gaming is more popular than ever, the requirements for discrete desktop GPUs to effectively game has never been less relative to mainstream hardware. This was never a small part of the market, either, btw. There were numerous months where the Intel HD series was the most popular "GPU" on the Steam survey 7-8 years ago. Now these iGPUs are more powerful than ever. And they aren't just in office-targeted desktops, they're in the new rising dominant class of casual desktops, which is the "AIO" class (where the computer is just a display with all the parts inside of it). Those AIOs use the same processors as laptops. Meanwhile, gaming laptops have never been more capable, and that isn't shown in his chart. Next, discrete GPUs themselves are aging out more slowly than ever as relevant to gaming minimums. No need to upgrade. Finally, 2020 just saw the release of a new console generation for the first time in 7 years (notice the dip post-2013).

You and I are on the same side. Kane's not wrong, both companies are being greedy, but NVIDIA is being way greedier, and as the market leader, they are the ones who are price-setting. They're in the driver's seat. We all want them to suffer. I'm just no convinced they're losing their ass, here. Unfortunately, there's been some wrenches in the rollout of the 7900 XTX, partly because AMD oversold, and also because the reference cards have had some issues. Because of that, despite the 4080's poor reception, I'm not optimistic the 7900 XTX will become the first AMD competitor to gain a larger share on that Steam survey than its direct competitor.

TLDR, if you want to hold me to a prediction to say "I told you so, Madmick, you were wrong", hold me to that. I believe the 4080 will maintain a larger share on the Steam survey than the 7900 XTX throughout their lives. Fingers crossed that I'm wrong. We're both rooting for the underdog.

They were never out of stock with the 4080s and a bunch of sources were shared for that. I wasn’t following feel good trending stories. It’s known that they have struggled to sell 4080s and continue too.

The part that makes me pessimistic about this story is that they have not struggled in the slightest to sell the equally ludicrously priced 4090s, which are getting scalped for a significant mark up

 

[Madmick]

They were never out of stock with the 4080s and a bunch of sources were shared for that.

We discussed specific variants, and how many of them were out of stock at their original targeted pricing (whether MSRP or a manufacturer-indicated premium above that), which was true across the board at numerous times during that exchange, if you snapshotted them. The point was the 4080 was out of stock at MSRP and its lowest intended pricing at major retailers. This was towards highlighting the larger truth, regarding the relationship of supply to demand, as healthy, but as I pointed out, that's because NVIDIA never intended to furnish as robust a supply. They adapted their strategy to a market that is buying less and less, and has been for a decade.

The downturn isn't just for GPUs. This is industry-wide, globally. Everyone is slashing orders from TSMC (Intel, NVIDIA, AMD). All of the major players are expecting depressed sales and revenue in 2023. NVIDIA is seeking to maximize ROI.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Guy figured out whats causing the 7900XTX to have performance issues from thermal throttling:






TLDR: Basically a design flaw with its heatsink and or vapor chamber within the heatsink.

 

[hitcher]

Guy figured out whats causing the 7900XTX to have performance issues from thermal throttling:



TLDR: Basically a design flaw with its heatsink and or vapor chamber within the heatsink.

der8auer is a german engineer well known especially on all things related to overclocking. lets hope this will lead to some redesigning from AMD.

 

[Madmick]

der8auer is a german engineer well known especially on all things related to overclocking. lets hope this will lead to some redesigning from AMD.

Fortunately the AIC variants aren't having that issue. This is why @Slobodan opted to purchase an AIC. Smooth sailing for those buyers with a far superior value than what NVIDIA is offering in its 4080.

 

[Slobodan]

Fortunately the AIC variants aren't having that issue. This is why @Slobodan opted to purchase an AIC. Smooth sailing for those buyers with a far superior value than what NVIDIA is offering in its 4080.

What a bullet dodge lol

 

[Madmick]

What a bullet dodge lol

It is a bit funny, too, when you think about it, because it was only with the launch of the RTX 2000 series that the reference designs stopped being a running joke. Prior to that, nobody even looked at the reference cards. They were almost always blower designs of cheapass quality, were awful, and pretty much universally avoided by self-builders.

 

[jefferz]

It is a bit funny, too, when you think about it, because it was only with the launch of the RTX 2000 series that the reference designs stopped being a running joke. Prior to that, nobody even looked at the reference cards. They were almost always blower designs of cheapass quality, were awful, and pretty much universally avoided by self-builders.

Plenty of people bought reference cards before the rtx2000 series. If you’re building a custom loop, you chose a reference card because they’re cheaper.
Why pay extra for a fancy cooler when you’re going to remove it.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

So I'm looking at some boutique pc sellers, and some say "brand may vary" when it comes to the GPU i.e. if you pick a 4080 it won't say which specific manufacturer you are getting.

Does that basically mean they'll stick on whatever they have on hand that's the cheapest? Is there enough differential between the makers that it makes sense to inquire which specific card one would get?

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I"m going to pull the trigger soon when back from work travelling, but right now I think I'm going with:

Case: Corsair 5000T Black
CPU: intel i7-13700
GPU: AMD 7900 XTX (debating Nvidia 4080 if there's a deal on it)
RAM: Corsair Dominator 32GB 6000MHz DDR5
System Drive: Samsung Pro or Corsair Gen 4 1TB nvme drive
PSU: 1000 or 1200 watt (hopefully platinum)
Cooler: 360MM liquid CPU cooler.
Motherboard: Don't really care between a Z690 and Z790, but I will try to get something with thunderbolt, even though they are pricey

Hoping the system will last me 10 years with a GPU switch after about 6. I think the rig would cost me about $3,500 to $4,000 but breaking it down per year over expected lifespan I am hoping for, it's like $400. Not bad IMO. Primary use gaming (yes I know the CPU is overkill for this), and some photo editing. I also just want something versatile in case I decide to get into more stuff like video editing.

 

[Madmick]

Plenty of people bought reference cards before the rtx2000 series.

No, they didn't. Wrong. Reference cards never topped bestseller charts on Amazon, Newegg, or other sellers. In fact, historically, AMD only produced a single batch of reference cards as a one-off release at the launch of the lineup.

If you’re building a custom loop, you chose a reference card because they’re cheaper.
Why pay extra for a fancy cooler when you’re going to remove it.

"Plenty of people" right before "custom loop".

Show me the statistics on what percentage of discrete GPUs prior to the RTX 2000 series outfitted with custom aftermarket liquid coolers? Or even today? Spoiler alert: it's as insignificant and niche as those with custom built CPU coolers today versus liquid AIOs (and air coolers). It's a tiny fraction of the market.

 

[KaNesDeath]

Hoping the system will last me 10 years with a GPU switch after about 6.

Case, PSU, Ram, case fans and peripherals can last you 10+ years if purchased correctly. Should never go in expecting the first generation of new hardware is future proofing.

 

[Madmick]

Samsung's latest gaming monitors include an 8K, 57-inch ultra-wide display

Samsung is determined to be stupid rather than practical with their Odyssey series. Never has any manufacturer more confusingly botched the naming schemes of different models, either. It's absurd how difficult it has been for me at times to parse which "Odyssey" product pages on major retailers like Amazon or Best Buy (or even PCPP) match which specific model numbers.

The latest Neo G9, which Samsung started teasing in November, has an 8K display with a resolution of 7,860 x 2,160 pixels. Samsung claims it's the first dual UHD mini-LED monitor. It has a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio and HDR 1000 support, along with a matte display to absorb light and minimize glare. The Neo G9 may be a viable option for high-performance gaming, given its 240Hz refresh rate and 1ms response time. In addition, Samsung says it's the first gaming monitor with DisplayPort 2.1 connectivity as well. The company will reveal more details later, including the all-important price.

Yes, DisplayPort 2.1! We've all been waiting on it, but not for a silly 7860x2160 unit no one can afford. We were waiting on it because DP 2.1 is required for sufficient bandwidth to drive a mere 8-bit (i.e. true SDR color) 3440x1440 ultrawide at 240Hz. If you were ever wondering, which you probably weren't, that's why you've never seen those before. All the gaming 1440p ultrawides on the market have been 100Hz-144Hz, usually, at most 175Hz. Displayport 1.4 couldn't push more. With the arrival of Displayport 2.0/2.1 and HDMI 2.1 on actual GPUs that has finally changed. It's going to usher in a whole new class of ultrawides.

*Edit* I failed to note why I was mocking this unit in the first place. Even DP 2.1 doesn't have the bandwidth to truly support this monitor. A true, 10-bit HDR 7680x2160 240Hz display would require 143.3 Gb/s of bandwidth. Even DP 2.1 only provides 77.4 Gb/s. It's such a headline-fishing gimmick piece of shit.


ASUS ROG Swift 360Hz PG27AQN

In the meantime, on a more practical level, I'm also personally excited to see the upcoming review from Rtings for the above ASUS ROG Swift 360Hz PG27AQN. They marked it bought, so it should hit their lab this January. This is set to usurp the throne as the best 27" eSports monitor in existence. Not only is it the first 360Hz 27" display ever, but it's leapfrogging 1080p straight to 1440p. And unlike Samsung's stupid clickbait fodder, which will probably cost more than a used car, this one is actually attainable-- a $1049 MSRP:
https://shop.asus.com/us/90lm0820-b013b0-rog-swift-360hz-pg27aqn.html

• 27" 2560x1440 IPS
• 360Hz
• HDR600 (including HDR10 support)
• NVIDIA G-Sync
• NVIDIA Reflex
• 98% DCI-P3 Color Gamut; 135% sRGB

 

[jefferz]

No, they didn't. Wrong. Reference cards never topped bestseller charts on Amazon, Newegg, or other sellers. In fact, historically, AMD only produced a single batch of reference cards as a one-off release at the launch of the lineup.

"Plenty of people" right before "custom loop".

Show me the statistics on what percentage of discrete GPUs prior to the RTX 2000 series outfitted with custom aftermarket liquid coolers? Or even today? Spoiler alert: it's as insignificant and niche as those with custom built CPU coolers today versus liquid AIOs (and air coolers). It's a tiny fraction of the market.

You just proved yourself wrong.
First you said “nobody looked at them”, then said “It's a tinyfraction of the market.”
How can nobody buy them and a tiny fraction buy them?
In b4 a long, drawn out post with the goalposts being moved.