Full Metal Jacket (1987)

For anyone interested: Kubrick is often put on a pedestal so high that people only ever talk about the films and filmmakers he influenced. It's very rare that people talk about the films and filmmakers that influenced him. It's the reason nobody ever brings up Ingmar Bergman's 1963 film The Silence when it comes to the way Kubrick shot the hotel stuff in The Shining and it's the reason nobody ever brings up Jack Webb's 1957 film The D.I. when it comes to the way Kubrick shot the boot camp stuff in Full Metal Jacket.



I can barely remember anything from the second half.

Not trying to be a dick, but "I can barely remember anything from the second half" isn't an acceptable jumping off point for a detailed critique. That's Ricky Bobby logic.

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Absolutely love this movie, Vietnam as seen through Stanley's brutal, beautiful eye.

I love how it is split into two halves, and I love the 2nd half as well. All of the absurdity of war is there, (SPOILERS) ... culminating in the dramatic, ruthless, sniper scene, and when you realize that it's a girl... just a perfect cap to the madness.

Really plays wonderfully for me, such a unique war movie. I really love the shit out of it.

And Modine was such a perfect casting choice for the lead... he played it so sweet and real and funny and sad and right down the middle.

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You need to post more about movies, petey. I'm always reminded how close we are on so many movies.
 
Not trying to be a dick, but "I can barely remember anything from the second half" isn't an acceptable jumping off point for a detailed critique. That's Ricky Bobby logic.

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Hence the grain of salt comment., and the non-detailed critique... o_O
 
I agree, the 2nd half may not be as unique or introspective as the first, but it's still great with some iconic and memorable scenes.

Good list (although thin red line is WW 2) I enjoyed all those movies -- and I would also add 'when we were soldiers' but I find a lot of people didn't enjoy that as much.

Also, really like the Vietnam portions of Dead Presidents and Forrest Gump.

We Were Soldiers was decent but it also suffered from some pointless sequences. I distinctly remember the whole thing about Barry Pepper's photography being a momentum sinkhole that added nothing, especially his photography montage.
 
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I also like the part where the black guy refers to his dick as "pure Alabama blacksnake".
Towards the end of my coaching career, there was a good wrestler who was tall and skinny. His team wore black finals singlets... they used to always talk about the Alabama Black Snake when he wrestled. it took months before someone on a forum explained to everyone what that meant (some older guy who'd seen Full Metal Jacket)
 
Bisexual: Most of what I'm going to say here is going to echo what I said to you in your Barry Lyndon thread. At the top, I'll say: Give Full Metal Jacket time and repeat viewings. As most people have found with most Kubrick movies, it'll grow on you. You may never hail it as a masterpiece, but you'll probably like it more in five more years and three more viewings.

I respect the amount of time and work you put into posts like this as a whole, but at the same time, I have to say that not everyone who finds something to criticize in a Kubrick film has simply failed to watch it enough times to realize their criticisms are wrong.

Most people - including most of the people in here - break the film into halves (even though it's really a film of thirds - first, boot camp pre-combat; second, post-boot camp pre-combat; third, combat) and then write off the second half. For me, whether we're talking halves or thirds, the combat sequence with the sniper is the most brilliant portion of the film IMO. Kubrick's legendary craftsmanship is just off the fucking charts. The cinematography and the editing are impeccable (that sequence when the sniper shoots Cowboy is fucking incredible) and the sound design and score are extraordinary.

I'll add another scene I have issues with that pertains to the cinematography once they're out of boot camp and into the action. There's a really contrived shot where it dollies past the entire platoon as they're hiding behind some rubble and taking fire. It's obviously very carefully choreographed and timed, with each actor delivering his line (five or six people in a row) as the camera dollies past him. But it feels so artificial and "movie" that it sucks away the realism of the battle in which they are engaged.

Planning and work went into having them all deliver their lines as the camera moved past them in order, but the overall effect was to take me out of the movie entirely.
 
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I have to say that not everyone who finds something to criticize in a Kubrick film has simply failed to watch it enough times to realize their criticisms are wrong.

Nowhere did I say this or even imply it. With Kubrick, whether you watch a movie of his for the first time and love it or hate it, it will invariably get better with time and repeat viewings. It's just the way his movies work. In five years, having watched it two or three more times, you may not consider it the GOAT war movie, but whatever you think of it overall, whatever initial criticisms you still feel mar the film and/or whatever new criticisms you pick up along the way, your general sense of the film will very likely be higher than it is right now. That's all I said.

As for the stuff you're wrong about: You don't need time and more viewings to fix that. I can just tell you what you're wrong about right here.

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I will teach you ;)

I'll add another scene I have issue with that pertains to the cinematography once they're out of boot camp and into the action. There's a really contrived shot where it dollies past the entire platoon as they're hiding behind some rubble and taking fire. It's obviously very carefully choreographed and timed, with each actor delivering his line (five or six people in a row) as the camera dollies past him. But it feels so artificial and "movie" that it sucks away the realism of the battle in which they are engaged.

Planning and work went into having them all deliver their lines as the camera moved past them in order, but the overall effect was to take me out of the movie entirely.

Perfect example: You're wrong, and here's why.

Ok, I guess I shouldn't jump the gun. First, I have to make sure I'm thinking of the same scene you are. Are you referring to the tracking shot while "Surfin' Bird" is playing? If not, then nothing I say here will matter and I'll make a subsequent post in response to the correct scene. If so, then you're wrong in terms of where you're directing your criticism. Your criticism presupposes that Kubrick intended his tracking shot to bring us into the film and make us feel like we were there with them in the heat of battle. But that's not what Kubrick was going for with that shot.

First off, let's underscore the fact that Kubrick needle drops "Surfin' Bird" right after an intense combat sequence that unfolded with natural sound. The point is to be jarring and highlight the strange confluence of the real and the surreal (one of Kubrick's recurring themes and why any invocation of realism in relation to Kubrick must be qualified). As for the tracking shot itself, it's important to point out that, technically, it's a second-layer tracking shot. That is, Kubrick's tracking shot is tracking a tracking shot. The documentary crew is there looking to get their "cool" war footage. It's their idea to track down the line. Kubrick's camera, meanwhile, isn't looking to capture the reality of combat by going down the line of soldiers. Rather, Kubrick is calling attention to the documentary crew and how ludicrous the entire spectacle is, from the zombified soldiers just staring at the camera because they've been in the shit so long, to the medics trying to get the injured/dead soldiers to helicopters without bumping into the camera, and finally to the "stars" who can't help hamming it up.

A famous line of Kubrick's, which he told Jack Nicholson while shooting The Shining, was that his goal was never to photograph reality but to photograph the photograph of reality. Nowhere in Kubrick's entire career is this logic more explicit than this sequence from Full Metal Jacket where Kubrick is literally filming people filming people. Kubrick absolutely strove for realism in Full Metal Jacket, but realism for Kubrick is a starting point, it's not the finish line. Kubrick always looks to move beyond the "merely" realistic and penetrate into deeper thematic territory.

That shot is one such example.
 
Nowhere did I say this or even imply it. With Kubrick, whether you watch a movie of his for the first time and love it or hate it, it will invariably get better with time and repeat viewings. It's just the way his movies work. In five years, having watched it two or three more times, you may not consider it the GOAT war movie, but whatever you think of it overall, whatever initial criticisms you still feel mar the film and/or whatever new criticisms you pick up along the way, your general sense of the film will very likely be higher than it is right now. That's all I said.

As for the stuff you're wrong about: You don't need time and more viewings to fix that. I can just tell you what you're wrong about right here.

30m79xy.jpg


I will teach you ;)



Perfect example: You're wrong, and here's why.

Ok, I guess I shouldn't jump the gun. First, I have to make sure I'm thinking of the same scene you are. Are you referring to the tracking shot while "Surfin' Bird" is playing? If not, then nothing I say here will matter and I'll make a subsequent post in response to the correct scene. If so, then you're wrong in terms of where you're directing your criticism. Your criticism presupposes that Kubrick intended his tracking shot to bring us into the film and make us feel like we were there with them in the heat of battle. But that's not what Kubrick was going for with that shot.

First off, let's underscore the fact that Kubrick needle drops "Surfin' Bird" right after an intense combat sequence that unfolded with natural sound. The point is to be jarring and highlight the strange confluence of the real and the surreal (one of Kubrick's recurring themes and why any invocation of realism in relation to Kubrick must be qualified). As for the tracking shot itself, it's important to point out that, technically, it's a second-layer tracking shot. That is, Kubrick's tracking shot is tracking a tracking shot. The documentary crew is there looking to get their "cool" war footage. It's their idea to track down the line. Kubrick's camera, meanwhile, isn't looking to capture the reality of combat by going down the line of soldiers. Rather, Kubrick is calling attention to the documentary crew and how ludicrous the entire spectacle is, from the zombified soldiers just staring at the camera because they've been in the shit so long, to the medics trying to get the injured/dead soldiers to helicopters without bumping into the camera, and finally to the "stars" who can't help hamming it up.

A famous line of Kubrick's, which he told Jack Nicholson while shooting The Shining, was that his goal was never to photograph reality but to photograph the photograph of reality. Nowhere in Kubrick's entire career is this logic more explicit than this sequence from Full Metal Jacket where Kubrick is literally filming people filming people. Kubrick absolutely strove for realism in Full Metal Jacket, but realism for Kubrick is a starting point, it's not the finish line. Kubrick always looks to move beyond the "merely" realistic and penetrate into deeper thematic territory.

That shot is one such example.

How much time do we really need to spend on the absurdity of the camera guys? This jarring second-layer tracking shot AND the interview footage? What did we learn about any of the characters other than the camera crew, and what did their actions say about the absurdity of the military press that wasn't already covered by Matthew Modine's debate in the meeting room with his boss?

I just found it to be an inefficient use of time, relative to the rest of the movie. I think you can cut out every single thing that happens with respect to the platoon being filmed, and lose next to nothing in terms of story, character and message, and give the movie better pacing.
 
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How much time do we really need to spend on the absurdity of the camera guys?

Well, the "Surfin' Bird" sequence is like two and a half minutes and the tracking shot is like a minute of that. So two and a half minutes. Out of 116 minutes. That hardly demands Herculean patience.

This jarring second-layer tracking shot AND the interview footage?

Add the interview footage to the previous two and a half minutes and that's about eight minutes. Out of 116. Again, not super demanding.

I think you can cut out every single thing that happens with respect to the platoon being filmed, and lose next to nothing in terms of story, character and message, and give the movie better pacing.

I've addressed these points across my previous posts, but one thing I'll add regarding the benefit these scenes have with the pacing is the way they allow for such fecund juxtapositions. The tonal shifts are so fucking nutty, from the ambient sound following the shootout to "Surfin' Bird" to the group "eulogy" for the compulsive masturbator to the interviews to the hooker to the sniper. The fact that there's this "inessential" stuff speaks to what a crazy day-to-day (or hell, minute-by-minute) existence these guys were living. And, by seeing them in these wildly different circumstances, we get to see what it takes to not just live in but survive that environment, what happens to you if you don't have what it takes, and what surviving costs.

Full Metal Jacket is, more than any other Vietnam movie save for The Deer Hunter, truly about the experience of war. Only what we think that experience is/was turns out to be something much weirder. And that weirdness, that incongruity, it's all threaded through a single coherent narrative.

And then, ignoring all thematic shit like that and getting down to the nuts-and-bolts of plotting and pacing, spacing out the highest highs - D'Onofrio's soap beating and then his suicide, initial contact with the enemy and then the sniper encounter - allows them to have a greater impact. On top of which, sprinkling in lighter shit (aided by such silly music as "Surfin' Bird" and "Wooly Bully") allows for the heavy shit to really fucking land. Listening to Cowboy joke about how there's not a single horse in Vietnam and then watching him get his guts blasted out and dying in Joker's arms, that's fucking brutal. And it's the one-two punch that makes it hurt so bad. You lose the first part and the second part just becomes a soldier getting shot.

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but Kubrick's shit works on literally every level. No matter how high up into abstract thematic territory you feel like going or how close to the ground level of plotting and pacing you feel like going, the result is the same:

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First half = masterpiece

second half = good but not great (except for the sniper scene)
 
How can you shoot women and children like that?

Easy! You just don't lead them as much!

Get some!
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Add the interview footage to the previous two and a half minutes and that's about eight minutes. Out of 116. Again, not super demanding.

I can't think of one minute that I would cut from Platoon.
 
Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but Kubrick's shit works on literally every level. No matter how high up into abstract thematic territory you feel like going or how close to the ground level of plotting and pacing you feel like going, the result is the same:

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It works on every level for you, my man. Kubrick was a fantastic director, in the running for best ever, and made many great films and many more great cinematic decisions. But I don't feel that he never made a misstep.

What else about Full Metal Jacket... I like Arliss Howard in general as an actor, but I didn't think he was cast or directed especially well in this film. It's in the running for the most nondescript, forgettable and unidentifiable character in film history. It's like he was told to combine Richard Thomas and Casey Siemaszko, and then eliminate anything even remotely distinctive about that generic hybrid person.

I can't think of many revered films where one of the main leads left me saying, "oh right, that guy" as much as this character.

I didn't feel much of anything when he died, given the gravity of the moment and the relative importance of his character. I don't think that is what Kubrick was shooting for. And this was partly because of the lulls in momentum and realism that I've mentioned. What he did worked for you, and I'm glad, but it didn't work perfectly for me.
 
Let's talk about Full Metal Jacket.

I'll cut to the chase. When considered as a whole, it is in the running for my least favorite Kubrick film.

I could watch the first half over and over again. If I had to watch the first AND second half, I'll decline the whole thing.

The first half of this film is absolutely fantastic. The second half of this film is barely even average. The second half of this film I consider to be inferior to Hamburger Hill, let alone Platoon.

With the first half of this film, Kubrick made the definitive movie about bullying. It's a masterpiece. I wish the movie had ended there, because once Matthew Modine ships off to Vietnam, the film has a number of issues.

His time in the press office is boring, and allows the more annoying aspects of his character to shine through.

Once he's in the field, it was obvious that it wasn't shot in Vietnam or anything like it. It looked like some deserted British cement factory with three palm trees stuck there to pass it off as Southeast Asia. It didn't have the feel of Vietnam at all, and I was surprised a perfectionist like Kubrick would fail in presenting his setting, given how masterfully he has done that in the past.

The portion with the interviews of the platoon where they are talking to the camera...it's terrible. It's filler. It's the worst few minutes of any Kubrick film ever, hands down.



What does this boring, static scene add for the characters that wasn't shown in or couldn't have been added through the characters interacting with each other? It was really important to show how these guys act when they know they're on camera?

Once they're dealing with the sniper, the quality picks up again, though nowhere near the level of the first half in boot camp.

I think the third quarter of this film is Kubrick's worst work of his career. It's unfortunate that it's included in the same film as the first half of the movie.


Kubrick should've filmed the Vietnam scenes in Hawaii instead of London slums.
 
Sucky Sucky love you long time, me so horny. me so horny. That is epic stuff.
 
Kubrick should've filmed the Vietnam scenes in Hawaii instead of London slums.

Rambo 2 was filmed in Mexico, and I never questioned it for a second.
 
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