Forum preservation thread

[anorak]

Your right in the middle of it so you know much more than myself but it seems we are arguing different points. I do not think you would find many people that prefer todays muaythai over the past generations. Still with all the problems i personally believe it is by far the most constant scoring in combat sports. Your there watching live fights we do not get to see on video so you have much better refrence but from what i have seen even much more people in the crowd know who actually won a greater percentage of the time than any other combat sport.

How often do you see a gym tell their fighter to coast and not get the decision? I can only remember a handful over the last few years but is this much more prevalent of events we do not see?

obviously in every close fight that fighters are told to stand off you have that as there can only be one winner, the weekend shows at Lumpini can be a real crap shoot when there is low crowds and few gamblers, you get loads of wtf fights there where corners walk away confused. The real point here surely is as others have said is how you get people in the west to take it aboard seriously when they ask "how is it scored?" answer " well you have to watch the big gamblers and see who they have ahead!"

 

[DastardlyMass]

obviously in every close fight that fighters are told to stand off you have that as there can only be one winner, the weekend shows at Lumpini can be a real crap shoot when there is low crowds and few gamblers, you get loads of wtf fights there where corners walk away confused. The real point here surely is as others have said is how you get people in the west to take it aboard seriously when they ask "how is it scored?" answer " well you have to watch the big gamblers and see who they have ahead!"

My point is at least you can go to the gamblers. In mma and kickboxing not even the people employed by the organizations can tell you how the fight is scored as everything is extremely subjective how takedowns,knees and kicks are scored. I mean glory's number 1 scoring criteria is "spectacular"strikes landed.It does not get more subjective than that

 

[Yodsanan]

I mean glory's number 1 scoring criteria is "spectacular"strikes landed.

it's not.

 

[DastardlyMass]

it's not.

excuse me it was for most of their existence until they finally decided that damage was the number 1 criteria with spectacular strikes now second

 

[Yodsanan]

You saying it like it is something bad. Even Samart complains that there is no room anymore for artistry in todays scoring.

excuse me it was for most of their existence until they finally decided that damage was the number 1 criteria with spectacular strikes now second

stop making shit up. it's always been like that.

 

[Kanka]

I understand he is complaining about how his sport has changed but that has nothing to do with anything i have said.

My thing is he can go ask the main gamblers instead of the who ever they would consult back when he fought about how and why they change the odds and thus how the fight is scored. Like i said earlier it is obvious the scoring has changed but he is acting like it is all just mysterious when there are even gamblers exchanging cash sometimes before an official decision is announced

What were you arguing against in the first place then? I said the scoring is difficult to understand and Tayski gave the Samart interview as an example of people who have spent their whole lives in the sport and still think it's difficult to understand scoring criteria. Yes of course anyone can learn to follow gambling odds but that's not really the same thing. No need to get caught up questioning what exactly Samart said, just look at the bigger picture instead.

 

[verrix]

he is a perfect source to explain what has happened to the sport and he is bang on the money as well, a 4 times Lumpini champion and former boxer of the year, but you think he's not a great source of info? It isn't just him saying this either its hundreds of gym owners, press guys, trainers, people that have been around the sport for decades and know more about it than anyone here including myself. If I had a pound for everytime I've heard someone say I don't know how to score fights anymore, because the decision has gone the way the gamblers have the odds set rather than the actual action in the ring and I'm talking owners of gyms/trainers that have produced multiple champions, I would have enough money to buy a new car

now this is a plot twist i didn't anticipate

 

[DastardlyMass]

What were you arguing against in the first place then? I said the scoring is difficult to understand and Tayski gave the Samart interview as an example of people who have spent their whole lives in the sport and still think it's difficult to understand scoring criteria. Yes of course anyone can learn to follow gambling odds but that's not really the same thing. No need to get caught up questioning what exactly Samart said, just look at the bigger picture instead.

because all i said was samart is not a great source of info on the topic of the scoring of muaythai in todays stadiums because he even admits in the video he does not know. I have not said shit about how the sport changed from then to now of how he does not know anything about muaythai. All i have said is what he even says himself in the video but the same people that accuse jt of twisting words are doing it right now. The gamblers surely understand the scoring system as they are not rioting at these decisions very often. It is just the sport has changed and most do not like the way it has evolved

 

[Kanka]

because all i said was samart is not a great source of info on the topic of the scoring of muaythai in todays stadiums because he even admits in the video he does not know. I have not said shit about how the sport changed from then to now of how he does not know anything about muaythai. All i have said is what he even says himself in the video but the same people that accuse jt of twisting words are doing it right now. The gamblers surely understand the scoring system as they are not rioting at these decisions very often. It is just the sport has changed and most do not like the way it has evolved

What was the point of your comment saying he is not a great source then? I'm not twisting words i'm questioning your comment about Samart not being a great source on the topic, which is also why i said you should look at the bigger picture, the context, the discussion we were having and the points we were making about difficulty on understanding the scoring criteria. I didn't find your perception of Samart very relevant to the discussion.

Didn't you also say he was straight up lying about finding it difficult to understand how they score fights before editing your post? Now you're saying he can just follow gambling odds... looks like you're twisting your own words.

If i have twisted your words, please show me where i did. My bad if i did.

 

[anorak]

because all i said was samart is not a great source of info on the topic of the scoring of muaythai in todays stadiums because he even admits in the video he does not know. I have not said shit about how the sport changed from then to now of how he does not know anything about muaythai. All i have said is what he even says himself in the video but the same people that accuse jt of twisting words are doing it right now. The gamblers surely understand the scoring system as they are not rioting at these decisions very often. It is just the sport has changed and most do not like the way it has evolved

he is perfect for the point people are putting across that you seem to refuse to be able to accept, the point of why it is hard for people outside of Thailand that don't understand the whole gambling system, to get enthusiastic about a sport that the Thai's themselves are turning away from more and more. They do have riots and upsets over the decisions way more than you see on here or on youtube.

 

[DastardlyMass]

he is perfect for the point people are putting across that you seem to refuse to be able to accept, the point of why it is hard for people outside of Thailand that don't understand the whole gambling system, to get enthusiastic about a sport that the Thai's themselves are turning away from more and more. They do have riots and upsets over the decisions way more than you see on here or on youtube.

I haven't not said anything about thing scoring system being easier or harder to understand relative to anything. None of my posts say anything about this.I have always conceded it takes time to learn the scoring system.

And eariler i was not talking about coin flip decision where both sides think hey have won but fights where One team tells their fight to cruise to the win and the other team knows they lost so the tell the fighter to quit attacking to avoid damage. You know the fights were gamblers are already exchanging cash before the decision. How many of those fights were most believe an absolute clear winner go the other way?

 

[DastardlyMass]

What was the point of your comment saying he is not a great source then? I'm not twisting words i'm questioning your comment about Samart not being a great source on the topic, which is also why i said you should look at the bigger picture, the context, the discussion we were having and the points we were making about difficulty on understanding the scoring criteria. I didn't find your perception of Samart very relevant to the discussion.

Didn't you also say he was straight up lying about finding it difficult to understand how they score fights before editing your post? Now you're saying he can just follow gambling odds... looks like you're twisting your own words.

If i have twisted your words, please show me where i did. My bad if i did.

because how can you use someone as a source on something when they freely admit they do not know about the subject. Thats like asking a retired 80's science professor about newly found information and when they do not know the answer you claim no one does just because the source you used did not.

 

[Kanka]

because how can you use someone as a source on something when they freely admit they do not know about the subject. Thats like asking a retired 80's science professor about newly found information and when they do not know the answer you claim no one does just because the source you used did not.

Still, it was a perfect example for Tayski to make his point.

 

[Thycidides]

obviously in every close fight that fighters are told to stand off you have that as there can only be one winner, the weekend shows at Lumpini can be a real crap shoot when there is low crowds and few gamblers, you get loads of wtf fights there where corners walk away confused. The real point here surely is as others have said is how you get people in the west to take it aboard seriously when they ask "how is it scored?" answer " well you have to watch the big gamblers and see who they have ahead!"

Which sport do you think has the most confusing decisions and is the hardest to score from those who should know : Mauy Thai, Boxing, MMA or kickboxing?

Are JT , Dastardly and Coca right to say Muay Thai scoring is better understood by judges and coaches than kickboxing ?

 

[DastardlyMass]

I guess i do not have a clue what we are discussing then. I have only been talking about the present day scoring of muaythai. Not how it has changed or how it used to be like it seems most of you might be trying to discuss.

 

[Kanka]

I guess i do not have a clue what we are discussing then. I have only been talking about the present day scoring of muaythai. Not how it has changed or how it used to be like it seems most of you might be trying to discuss.

The discussion was about the current state of muay thai and why it's difficult for westerners to understand it.. If even Samart thinks it's complicated, a westerner will definitely do too.

think even Coca has said it requires more time and thinking to understand muay thai.

 

[Kanka]

Which sport do you think has the most confusing decisions and is the hardest to score from those who should know : Mauy Thai, Boxing, MMA or kickboxing?

Are JT , Dastardly and Coca right to say Muay Thai scoring is better understood by judges and coaches than kickboxing ?

They all have flaws. I believe kickboxing judging for the most part is more inconsistent than stadium judging. The corruption and the robberies in kickboxing definitely hurt the kickboxing brand credibility but at least the audience feel like they understand who is winning and who is not winning. For stadium muay thai it takes more time to get an intuition for who is doing better.

 

[DastardlyMass]

The discussion was about the current state of muay thai and why it's difficult for westerners to understand it.. If even Samart thinks it's complicated, a westerner will definitely do too.

think even Coca has said it requires more time and thinking to understand muay thai.

I have never once claimed it was easy to pick up the scoring or any idiot should be able to watch and know who won. I have always claimed it takes time to understand the scoring and is not something familiar to a western fight fan

Samart is an excellent source if you want to know how the sport has changed or most anything else about mt but that is not what i was ever talking about. I have only been discussing the current state of muaythai judging and when someone says they do not know how it is scored in the present day that makes them a bad source of information on that particular sub topic.

 

[Kanka]

I have never once claimed it was easy to pick up the scoring or any idiot should be able to watch and know who won. I have always claimed it takes time to understand the scoring and is not something familiar to a western fight fan

Samart is an excellent source if you want to know how the sport has changed or most anything else about mt but that is not what i was ever talking about. I have only been discussing the current state of muaythai judging and when someone says they do not know how it is scored in the present day that makes them a bad source of information on that particular sub topic.

Yeah ok then you definitely misunderstood Tayskis intention with posting that video...

Btw, why did you edit out you saying that he was clearly lying about not understanding how to judge a fight, and now you seem to say he indeed does not understand? Doed not make any sense. I don't think he understands in less than any other person that is actively involved in the fight scene.

 

[DastardlyMass]

Yeah ok then you definitely misunderstood Tayskis intention of posting that video...

Btw, why did you edit out you saying that he was clearly lying about not understanding how to judge a fight, and now you seem to say he indeed does not understand? Doed not make any sense. I don't think he understands in less than any other person that is actively involved in the fight scene.

because it was up for less than 2 minutes saying that before i realized that was not the right choice of words as how can i know what he truly understands or not. I understand samarts point that he was raised and lived most of his life with the scoring one way and he does not like how it is now. But unless the fight is fixed before hand the big gamblers are setting the lines based off the action in the ring and if you want to actually know how they reach the decisions they do now that is who you should consult instead of just being mystified and wishing it would return to the old way when it clearly is not.