First Cousin Marriage In Islam - Commonplace, As Muhammad (Then Ali and Umar); Almost Half Inbred:

[Rod1]

As I understood it, high priests and men in privileged positions, who were generally more intelligent, had selective breeding rights with more women, and thus they propagated their more intelligent offspring, whereas the dummies with no status hit a genetic dead-end. Some sort of cultural eugenics or systemic survival of the fittest.

I'm sure there's many reasons for the Jewish/IQ correlation, but that is argued to be one of them.

Most ashkenazis descend from merchants who traveled to europe, middle-eastern jews are average.

 

[dissolved]

I can understand marrying a first cousin if you live in the middle of nowhere with no means of travel like people used to, but nowadays? maybe if she is a 10 and im a 1 and somehow she got the hots for me. Or maybe if she had tons of money and i didnt.

Nonetheless all my cousins are ugly as f.

This I agree with.

I was surprised at the genetic issues of the Jews tbh because this is the first time I've looked this up.

But the article did say it was from a period when this practice was happening in frequency hundreds of years ago (I think it was 300 to 500 years ago).

Honestly I couldn't find any information on the current practices of the Jews (what the percentages of marriages are first cousins). As you're Wikipedia article listed the many genetic diseases that result from this inbreeding, I think it's more than safe to say It's NOT
a healthy, modern-day, civilized practice.

That all said, here is a statement from Jewish Rabbi when posed with the question of cousin marriage:

http://www.aish.com/atr/Cousin-Marriages.html?mobile=yes

I should add that Jewish law obligates us to abide by the law of the land. Since many US states and locations worldwide forbid cousin marriages, one may not marry his cousin in such locations according to Jewish law as well.

I would wish that Muslims would respect the laws of the land and not go back to the ME to marry their cousins and then bring them here (through the back door so to speak). In the man-that-I-worked-with's case, to me it didn't even seem like he loved this woman he's marrying that much but he's following his mother's advice and more or less reverting to "being a good
Muslim" after having his heart broken by a girl here.

 

[dissolved]

Except that I didn't, please read my posts carefully. I acknowledged that there was an increased risk but that it was a minimal one. Most of the sources posted here point to a 4%-7% chance of a birth defect with the one referring to the community in Pakistan presenting a range of 5%-11% but also mentioning the possibility of other factors like the effect of iodine deficiency medications on birth defects. The standard risk is already 1%-3% so the increase is not as dramatic as you're trying to present it

I didn't ignore them, I explicitly quoted the one study you posted and, unlike you it seems, I actually read it. There are potentially other issues and the chances of a having a baby without a birth defect were still 95%-89% compared to the standard 99%-97%. The study done in the Bradford community, the one with the abnormally high number of Pakistanis, still found the rate I presented earlier of roughly doubling the risk to an absolute risk of abut 3%-4%.

That's exactly what I'm doing because that's exactly what this is. Whatever attachment I may or may not have is eclipsed by what you have to Islam; a raging hate boner that drives you to make poor arguments like this. So please, don't pretend like I have some insurmountable bias here and you're just showing the facts. So you can fuck off with this.

Why haven't we moved past older women giving birth? Two of the doctors you quoted mentioned the risk between first cousins was similar to the risk of a woman over 34 having a child and yet we haven't frowned upon that in the same way. I mean, two of my cousins gave birth to three children after the age of 40! How horrible of them(the babies came out healthy btw)!

Older women can have babies because being old can't be helped! Marrying cousins can!

Your logic is bad, period!

Get this, just because Jesus, the Son of God, Messiah, God in the flesh, lived his life in singleness and perfection, it does not mean that we should practice singleness (obviously) unless someone is specifically told to do so by God.

Muslims can't really say anything negative about cousin marriage because Muhammad did it, as did caliphs Ali and Uma (and likely other successors). It's this unreasonability that exists when A) an imperfect person (Muhammad) is labeled as the perfect man and an example to all and B) because of the desperate piety that occurs when one is attempting to earn their salvation from a holy "God" rather than incurring the most brutal eternity imaginable.

As you said in a previous post "[Islam] has enough to deal with without nitpicking."

I have to say I was surprised by this finding (the frequency of cousin marriage in Islam) but then fairly unsurprised when I learned the history of it from Muhammad onward. Like Muslims emulate Muhammad and the caliphs by taking their names with startling frequency, it is no surprise to me that cousin marriage has been employed/"adopted" as a valid go-to procreating contract.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Older women can have babies because being old can't be helped! Marrying cousins can!

Your logic is bad, period!

Get this, just because Jesus, the Son of God, Messiah, God in the flesh, lived his life in singleness and perfection, it does not mean that we should practice singleness (obviously) unless someone is specifically told to do so by God.

Muslims can't really say anything negative about cousin marriage because Muhammad did it, as did caliphs Ali and Uma (and likely other successors). It's this unreasonability that exists when A) an imperfect person (Muhammad) is labeled as the perfect man and an example to all and B) because of the desperate piety that occurs when one is attempting to earn their salvation from a holy "God" rather than incurring the most brutal eternity imaginable.

As you said in a previous post "[Islam] has enough to deal with without nitpicking."

I have to say I was surprised by this finding (the frequency of cousin marriage in Islam) but then fairly unsurprised when I learned the history of it from Muhammad onward. Like Muslims emulate Muhammad and the caliphs by taking their names with startling frequency, it is no surprise to me that cousin marriage has been employed/"adopted" as a valid go-to procreating contract.

You're immune to persuasion when ti comes to Islam, I'm not even sure why I tried.

Cheers.

 

[dontsnitch]

Most ashkenazis descend from merchants who traveled to europe, middle-eastern jews are average.

That's interesting, maybe my factoid is nonsense.

How would you explain this high IQ correlation, if at all?

 

[dissolved]

I think Samaritans are the most inbred group in Israel.

No obvious genetic damage to the example in Wikipedia.

Is that Amber Heard? If not, the Muslim guy I worked with said his red hair was likely due to his parents being cousins. His words not mine. Don't know how he would know this, but maybe it's a common trait.

 

[dissolved]

we can't judge . they are a different culture. who's to say we are right and they are wrong? exactly nobody. infact we are actually limiting the amount of potential spouses that we can have by saying we can't marry our cousins. so really we're the intolerant ones. we should be ashamed of ourselves.

I smiled

 

[sloppypie]

yea after getting over the whole guy threatened to shoot up the workplace comment, this thread is pretty lackluster. who really gives a shit about muslims marrying cousins, we have an entire dictionary of redneck jokes that revolve around sister and cousin fucking.

like @Kafir-kun said, there's plenty of really reprehensible things they do in muslim countries to shit all over, harping on cousins seems kinda trivial.

although TS gets a pass since john wick is a great movie.

 

[dissolved]

Whoa, hang on guys. We need to be careful not to sound "intolerant".

I've given up talking about this with family and friends. As soon as they start hearing facts about Islam that confuses their western sensibilities they shut down and lean heavily on the words "intolerant" and "racist" until the conversation is over. They think I'm the ignorant one. It really is something to see.

Apparently the most important aspect of western culture is tolerance, at any cost.

And this conversation is just a microcosm (maybe not that micro) of the minimizing of "the prophet" Muhammad's imperfections (and Islam's many current negative practices) by Muslims.

Look up many question and answer topics on Islamic websites and they don't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Person a) comes up with a serious misgiving, Muslim "scholar" b) comes up with a topic ending trite answer lacking any depth/evidence/meat that goes outside of the traditions and books of the religion.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Look up many question and answer topics on Islamic websites and they don't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. Person a) comes up with a serious misgiving, Muslim "scholar" b) comes up with a topic ending trite answer lacking any depth/evidence/meat that goes outside of the traditions and books of the religion.

Lol, am I a "Muslim scholar" now?

 

[dissolved]

Of course studies like this do ahve value. They tend to rigorously control for other factors that could be present in a specific individuals life. The increased cancer risk caused by red meat on its own may be small but if an individual has other risk factors like family history then its something they should think carefully about.

Similarly an individual thinking about marrying his cousin should also think about his or her specific risk factors like family history or the iodine deficiency that was mentioned in one of those sources posted. My point here is that to selectively mention this one little fact without the proper context and to pretend like cousin marriage presents some grave risk is disingenuous and really just another reason for TS to irrationally shit on Islam.

To be clear there are plenty of reasons to shit on Islam rationally

Child marriages? Rational reason

Apostasy laws? Rational reason

Blasphemy laws? Rational reason

Gender segregation? Rational reason

Honor killings? Rational reason

Public execution via stoning or beheading? Rational reason

Rampant antisemitism? Rational reason

There's so much material here that to start complaining about first cousin marriages or, as TS has done in the past, the economic impact of Ramadan is just jumping the shark.

Not no it isn't (on either point). Seriously.

Why do you think jokes on cousin marriage in "the west" have been a thing for decades - maybe half a century or more now?

First, it was directed at rural westerners and often characterized by birth defects, dim personalities and lots of similarly patterened children. Generally, it's been known that it's not a healthy practice - especially long-term and outside of isolated instances.

That all said, sure, this isn't the gravest of concerns. But it is problematic and indicitive of the more serious issue of prophet emulation.

 

[dissolved]

Lol, am I a "Muslim scholar" now?

Okay that's funny.

 

[Rod1]

That's interesting, maybe my factoid is nonsense.

How would you explain this high IQ correlation, if at all?

IQ is partly inherited, if the core small population from which all ashkenazis descend were pretty smart, then all ashkenazis will remain relatively smart until miscegenation returns them to the average.
Or simply jewish values coupled with western schooling system produces high IQ.

They will eventually return to the average since they are such a minority that they are mixing with people outside their community.

 

[Rod1]

This I agree with.

I was surprised at the genetic issues of the Jews tbh because this is the first time I've looked this up.

But the article did say it was from a period when this practice was happening in frequency hundreds of years ago (I think it was 300 to 500 years ago).

Honestly I couldn't find any information on the current practices of the Jews (what the percentages of marriages are first cousins). As you're Wikipedia article listed the many genetic diseases that result from this inbreeding, I think it's more than safe to say It's NOT
a healthy, modern-day, civilized practice.

That all said, here is a statement from Jewish Rabbi when posed with the question of cousin marriage:

http://www.aish.com/atr/Cousin-Marriages.html?mobile=yes.

Well people married their cousins to protect wealth, the clan, political gain.

Ashkenazis are increasingly marrying outside of their communities, so their genetic problems are likely to disappear i think.

 

[dissolved]

Well you should try to be more informed and specific. For instance cousin marriage isn't really an "Islam" thing. In terms of doctrine, even several branches of mainstream Sunni Islam are against it. It's a cultural thing, and across cultures it's largely a product of dowry/inheritance customs.

Come on now. I agree historically the Jews did it but can you find out information on the current percentage of Jews who practice cousin-marriage today? I posted some articles (outside of the Wikiislam one which I know you'll criticize) which demonstrate that the percentage of Muslims who are married to their cousins or are the product of cousins is nearly %50.

I'd be willing to bet there are more cousin marriages within Islam than any other people group in the world.

Further, when Muhammad did it, Ali did it, and Uma did it; and when you know how "prophet" and caliph emulation is a huge propensity in Islam, I think it's very inaccurate (or perhaps another word) to dissociate the practice and the religion.

 

[Slippery Kantus]

"My wife called me a pedophile. Pretty big word for a nine year old..."

-Muhammad

Hahahahahahahahahhaa so good!

 

[Islam Imamate]

Not no it isn't (on either point). Seriously.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion

Why do you think jokes on cousin marriage in "the west" have been a thing for decades - maybe half a century or more now?

First, it was directed at rural westerners and often characterized by birth defects, dim personalities and lots of similarly patterened children. Generally, it's been known that it's not a healthy practice - especially long-term and outside of isolated instances.

I don't know but some have said its a relic from the eugenics movement which popularized concerns about reproduction. Race is the factor many eugenicists preoccupied themselves with but reproduction among cousins is another. Given that cousin marriage is associated with rural areas and the fact that America had a large urban population during the rise of the eugenics movement it could be that the sense of urban superiority contributed to the spread and staying power of this cultural taboo. I wonder, do you agree with the taboos surrounding race that the eugenics movement produced?

In the end, its is mostly that; a cultural taboo. As I showed the science points to a fairly small increase in risk. The baby has a 93% chance of coming out healthy at the worst.

That all said, sure, this isn't the gravest of concerns. But it is problematic and indicitive of the more serious issue of prophet emulation.

That's a stretch. Cousin marriages are associated with rural, underdeveloped, and tribal regions and 7th century Arabia was exactly that. It would be surprising if he didn't marry a cousin. The reality is the practice does not carry great risks.

The child marriage point is a much, much more valid one. Rural and tribal regions, especially ones with an honor culture and a strong deference to the family, will see higher rates of cousin marriages. For instance cousin marriages are banned and frowned upon in Northern India but not in Southern India where cousin marriages are common among Hindus.

 

[dissolved]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion

I don't know but some have said its a relic from the eugenics movement which popularized concerns about reproduction. Race is the factor many eugenicists preoccupied themselves with but reproduction among cousins is another. Given that cousin marriage is associated with rural areas and the fact that America had a large urban population during the rise of the eugenics movement it could be that the sense of urban superiority contributed to the spread and staying power of this cultural taboo. I wonder, do you agree with the taboos surrounding race that the eugenics movement produced?

In the end, its is mostly that; a cultural taboo. As I showed the science points to a fairly small increase in risk. The baby has a 93% chance of coming out healthy at the worst.

That's a stretch. Cousin marriages are associated with rural, underdeveloped, and tribal regions and 7th century Arabia was exactly that. It would be surprising if he didn't marry a cousin. The reality is the practice does not carry great risks.

The child marriage point is a much, much more valid one. Rural and tribal regions, especially ones with an honor culture and a strong deference to the family, will see higher rates of cousin marriages. For instance cousin marriages are banned and frowned upon in Northern India but not in Southern India where cousin marriages are common among Hindus.

Look, I've said my piece, you've said yours.

I'm not asking those married to cousins divorce or to stop having kids. I calling for the ceasing of cousin marriage going forward except for extreme circumstances.

Finally, it is much more reasonable to believe that Muslims are unyielding in their practice and opinions on cousin-marriage due to the life of Muhammad (and the caliphs) than it is to believe that there is some subversive movement to create a stigma around cousin marriage. We've already agreed with science that there are proven negative genetic consequences from cousin-marriage (particularly if continued generation after generation). Thus, the only reason to continue on with the practice is for religious reasons and if literally no non-cousins are nearby (which I [and I would bet most] don't see as legit today).

Oh, and sloppypie, what's with your walking the fence on this? This is a cut and dry issue actually.

 

[TurboHolocaust]

My wife works taking fingerprints for security clearances/ immigration/ police checks, and when I mentioned this topic to her, she told me that she sees a fair amount of east Indians/ Pakistanis with extra or malformed digits. I'm not sure if it is due to the high rate of cousin marrying in those cultures or some other environmental/genetic factor.

 

[Islam Imamate]

My wife works taking fingerprints for security clearances/ immigration/ police checks, and when I mentioned this topic to her, she told me that she sees a fair amount of east Indians/ Pakistanis with extra or malformed digits. I'm not sure if it is due to the high rate of cousin marrying in those cultures or some other environmental/genetic factor.

Probably both like an earlier article claimed. When the chances for deformity are 4%-7% but a bunch of people are doing it in a highly populated region of the world with sub par healthcare in large swaths of the country you're bound to run into stuff like this.