Crime Firearms

[Rob Battisti]

That's not what I said though, not sure why you can't just read my argument and engage with it honestly.

I am trying to and I always have been respectful to you. I would allow for the inclusion of accidental firing into the overall safety of having a gun in the home, but don’t believe that self inflicted harm should be a consideration when discussing gun safety.

This is due to there being two groups of people that are included in the cohort. Suicidal and non suicidal. When discussing safety, the non-suicidal should be the only cohort considered which is why I believe including suicides into the gun safety argument — specifically when people are advocating for guns as a self defense measure — is a bad faith tactic.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I am trying to and I always have been respectful to you. I would allow for the inclusion of accidental firing into the overall safety of having a gun in the home, but don’t believe that self inflicted harm should be a consideration when discussing gun safety.

This is due to there being two groups of people that are included in the cohort. Suicidal and non suicidal. When discussing safety, the non-suicidal should be the only cohort considered which is why I believe including suicides into the gun safety argument — specifically when people are advocating for guns as a self defense measure — is a bad faith tactic.

The suicidal are not a fixed group, people can stray into and out of that group over time. Hence my pointing out that ~25% of Americans will experience a mental illness at some point in their life before old age and ~50% when you include the elderly. Even another poster defending gun ownership here agrees and admitted to having to hold his friend's firearms for a time. But of course at the individual level if a person is of sound mind and they do not live with children or others who may not be of sound mind then the risk factor is different and owning a gun makes more sense.

I just think that folks in general underestimate how many people are at risk of things like depression and suicidal ideation. Its not uncommon after a suicide for those close to the person to be shocked and to recount that they seemed to be a happy, well adjusted person beforehand. When you balance that with the relatively low incidents of violent crime outside certain high crime zip codes I find that the question of whether or not to own a gun becomes more complicated than many gun owners let on. To be clear I generally support the right to own a gun, even if I think its a mistake for some people freedom means allowing people to make those kinds of mistakes.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

I am trying to and I always have been respectful to you. I would allow for the inclusion of accidental firing into the overall safety of having a gun in the home, but don’t believe that self inflicted harm should be a consideration when discussing gun safety.

This is due to there being two groups of people that are included in the cohort. Suicidal and non suicidal. When discussing safety, the non-suicidal should be the only cohort considered which is why I believe including suicides into the gun safety argument — specifically when people are advocating for guns as a self defense measure — is a bad faith tactic.

being suicidal isn’t always permanent though. so an added impediment would help curb would-be suiciders. also, way more people die shooting themselves than intruding someone’s home.

 

[Rob Battisti]

The suicidal are not a fixed group, people can stray into and out of that group over time. Hence my pointing out that ~25% of Americans will experience a mental illness at some point in their life before old age and ~50% when you include the elderly. Even another poster defending gun ownership here agrees and admitted to having to hold his friend's firearms for a time. But of course at the individual level if a person is of sound mind and they do not live with children or others who may not be of sound mind then the risk factor is different and owning a gun makes more sense.

I just think that folks in general underestimate how many people are at risk of things like depression and suicidal ideation. Its not uncommon after a suicide for those close to the person to be shocked and to recount that they seemed to be a happy, well adjusted person beforehand. When you balance that with the relatively low incidents of violent crime outside certain high crime zip codes I find that the question of whether or not to own a gun becomes more complicated than many gun owners let on. To be clear I generally support the right to own a gun, even if I think its a mistake for some people freedom means allowing people to make those kinds of mistakes.

Agree to disagree. Thanks for the respectful discussion.

 

[Belaya Smert]

I just wish ammo wasn't so damn expensive what the hell.

That's the legislation we need to pass.

Whatever you do don’t fall in love with anything that shoots the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

 

[Belaya Smert]

The trope that gang violence is a top cause of firearm homicide came up in this thread

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/us-child-gunshot-er-visits-surged-during-pandemic.4285525/page-2

I couldn't find stats for the percentage of murders with a gun that are gang related but as I said there, estimates for the percentage of all murders in the USA which are gang related vary from 6% to 13%.

I Should have specified mass shootings

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/16/street-brawls-gang-gunfights-dominate-causes-267-m/
Of 267 incidents this year classified as mass shootings by the Gun Violence Archive, nearly all can be tied to gang beefs, neighborhood arguments, robberies or domestic incidents that spiraled out of control.

 

[650lb Sumo]

I Should have specified mass shootings

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/16/street-brawls-gang-gunfights-dominate-causes-267-m/
Of 267 incidents this year classified as mass shootings by the Gun Violence Archive, nearly all can be tied to gang beefs, neighborhood arguments, robberies or domestic incidents that spiraled out of control.

I think that would still be an assumption/overstatement. They haven't separated gang violence from altercations/arguments:

The Times pored over the 267 mass shootings recorded this year from Jan. 1 to June 15 and matched them against police and media reports to determine motives and circumstances.

Roughly 60% were heat-of-the-moment altercations, gang-related shootings or both.

Out of this year’s total, arguments or gang violence accounted for 174 deaths (57%) and 869 injuries (75.5%).

 

[My Spot]

The problem is it's not just gang members being shot and killed. For example, 18 people were shot during a public watch party with hundreds in attendance for an NBA playoff game and most of the victims were innocent bystanders. Of course the incident was quickly forgotten since it happened a day before the Buffalo grocery store shooting.

 

[Belaya Smert]

I think that would still be an assumption/overstatement. They haven't separated gang violence from altercations/arguments:

The Times pored over the 267 mass shootings recorded this year from Jan. 1 to June 15 and matched them against police and media reports to determine motives and circumstances.

Roughly 60% were heat-of-the-moment altercations, gang-related shootings or both.

Out of this year’s total, arguments or gang violence accounted for 174 deaths (57%) and 869 injuries (75.5%).

Legal gun owners the demographic that makes up the overwhelming majority of US gun owners (400 million civilian owned firearms in estimate). aren’t in the streets shooting people. The largest group of the suicide statistic leans toward more whites and rural areas of the county. The overwhelming majority of mass shootings take place in urban areas of the country with young males of color. This has been tracked since the federal government started keeping statistics when it was the FBI crime stats they used in previous years. Before they did the Pandemic Relief under President Biden to allow the CDC to recategorize “gun violence” as a public health emergency that also required funding for research CDC data from 2020-.
We exist in a country of 400 million guns.
We have had 16 million first time gun owners in the last two years.
We need to fund gun education and get the information to these people that most police departments have free gun locks and safe storage especially within households with young children is essential.

 

[Witchhunt]

So, if someone identifies as dead, I guess it’s ok to ban a thrifty means of dead affirming treatment..
War on suicide has got to stop!

 

[rob mafia]

So, if someone identifies as dead,

\m/

 

[djacobox372]

The suicidal are not a fixed group, people can stray into and out of that group over time. Hence my pointing out that ~25% of Americans will experience a mental illness at some point in their life before old age and ~50% when you include the elderly. Even another poster defending gun ownership here agrees and admitted to having to hold his friend's firearms for a time. But of course at the individual level if a person is of sound mind and they do not live with children or others who may not be of sound mind then the risk factor is different and owning a gun makes more sense.

I just think that folks in general underestimate how many people are at risk of things like depression and suicidal ideation. Its not uncommon after a suicide for those close to the person to be shocked and to recount that they seemed to be a happy, well adjusted person beforehand. When you balance that with the relatively low incidents of violent crime outside certain high crime zip codes I find that the question of whether or not to own a gun becomes more complicated than many gun owners let on. To be clear I generally support the right to own a gun, even if I think its a mistake for some people freedom means allowing people to make those kinds of mistakes.

There are a lot of ways to kill oneself, do we have data that shows those that killed themselves with a gun would have been less likely to kill themselves had they not owned a gun?

South Korea has a significantly higher suicide rate than the US, yet private gun ownership is only 27 per 10k people (329 times less than the US).

 

[oldshadow]

There are a lot of ways to kill oneself, do we have data that shows those that killed themselves with a gun would have been less likely to kill themselves had they not owned a gun?

South Korea has a significantly higher suicide rate than the US, yet private gun ownership is only 27 per 10k people (329 times less than the US).

But you are more dead if you use a gun then other means.

 

[Belaya Smert]

Not sure if already posted but good enough to post twice.

 

[Spounman]

 

[Belaya Smert]

According to the Wall Street Journal, as of January 2023, the number of children under the age of 14 committing murder is the highest it's been in nearly two decades. In Philadelphia, there were 81 juveniles killed by gunfire in 2021 and 2022 compared to 153 in New York City, a 6-year-high, and 16 in Washington D.C., a 56% increase from 2021.

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

 

[My Spot]

Come for the $20 milspec uppers, stay because you were kidnapped and had your head chopped off. Decisions, decisions.

 

[fedorthegoat777]

I keep a shotgun, rifle, and handgun.

Handgun to take down someone at close range. Rifle to pick people from a distance. Shotgun with buck shot to really mow someone down or a group of people. Six in the chamber.

Then shotgun with bird shot in case you don't want to kill someone, but want to send a gentle message and you think 50 little pieces of lead in them at a distance will help send that message.

All fully loaded, cocked, no safetys. In a safe of course.

 

[Spounman]