Fights/fighters where you suspect loaded gloves

Jack Kearns admitted to loading Dempsey's gloves and that has been disputed by some but I have never heard of the injuries not being real. Dempsey was landing clean and at will at a near defenseless Willard.
The injuries were wildly exaggerated...not really much to dispute there, It's pretty straightforward. He had a busted lip and bruised ribs and that's it.

It's boxing....you don't hit eachother with baseball bats, the insane extent of those injuries could not possibly be brought on by gloved mitts... Dempsey was a little light heavyweight and Willard was the size of David Price...it's not like Dempsey's little ass would fuck him up that bad realistically. Dempsey is the size of a modern middleweight, he isn't out there fucking guys up like that
 
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As another poster recently stated, or I believe it was recent, Nazim Richardson has, and I have seen this interview on YT myself, that the wraps originally put on Trinidad were legal in many states, if not most. Trinidad had only fought in new york 3 times previous. Also, which is important to note, he said that in Vegas/Nevada the wraps would have been A-OK. Basically, it was just rule difference most arent aware of. also like the other commenters said, he made it a point to say that there was zero comparison between the two situations, Margarito and Trinidad

I'm just curious, what was the difference? Fight nerd in me wants to know

The video further down the page alludes to extra tape
 
The injuries were wildly exaggerated...not really much to dispute there, It's pretty straightforward. He had a busted lip and bruised ribs and that's it.

It's boxing....you don't hit eachother with baseball bats, the insane extent of those injuries could not possibly be brought on by gloved mitts... Dempsey was a little light heavyweight and Willard was the size of David Price...it's not like Dempsey's little ass would fuck him up that bad realistically. Dempsey is the size of a modern middleweight, he isn't out there fucking guys up like that
I'll choose to believe the 2 fighters and the manager who admitted loading the gloves.
 
I'll choose to believe the 2 fighters and the manager who admitted loading the gloves.
Loaded gloves or not it is what it is.


If you want to believe Willard looked like aliens mutilated him in a Nebraska field after fighting a little 180 pound kid because it's fun, then that's fine. It's a good urban boxing legend......but it's grossly exaggerated and not even realistic
 
Loaded gloves or not it is what it is.


If you want to believe Willard looked like aliens mutilated him in a Nebraska field after fighting a little 180 pound kid because it's fun, then that's fine. It's a good urban boxing legend......but it's grossly exaggerated and not even realistic
Post some pics.
 
BTW, I didn't mean to imply Dempsey knew his gloves were loaded. According to Kearns, he didn't know. Not sure what Kearns would gain by making up such a story.
 
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The hell are you talking about? Tito was never a 160lber by any means & we know how far up Hopkins went on to go in weigh. It’s been explained many times, there was nothing illegal about the wraps it just wasn’t legal in NY, your going to argue Robert fucking Garcia who not only debunked this and said he prefers to wrap his fighters this way but actually trained Vargas for the Tito fight. He’s the last person that should be speaking up for Tito ffs.

"The hell are you talking about?"
- I cut and pasted from HBO's account of the fight.

"Tito was never a 160lber by any means & we know how far up Hopkins went on to go in weigh."
- Correct. This was only his second fight at middleweight. I am unsure what Hopkins and Trinidad weigh come fight-time. But, for his fight a year before against Echols, Hopkins weighed 166 the night of the fight. During his first fight against Taylor (four years later), Hopkins weighed 168 during the fight. One could imagine that he weighed in the mid-160s during his fight with Trinidad.

As for Felix, he weighed 169 come fight night against Winky Wright in 2005. He weighed 168 on fight night against Mayorga in 2004. Whereas two years before his match with Hopkins, Trinidad weighed 155lbs on fight night against Whitaker. Like Hopkins, one could assume that Trinidad weighed in the mid-160s come fight time with Hopkins. I do not believe that Trinidad was outsized when he fought Hopkins. But, even just 10 pounds is a lot to adjust to.


"there was nothing illegal about the wraps it just wasn’t legal in NY,"
- So, the handwraps were not legal in the state of New York. Since the fight took place in New York, they were not deemed legal for this particular fight.

"your going to argue Robert fucking Garcia who not only debunked this and said he prefers to wrap his fighters this way but actually trained Vargas for the Tito fight."
- The first article I posted clearly states that Naazim Richardson, who first noticed the handwraps in question, should not besmirch' Trinidad's legacy. His opinion is that the wrappings were an issue of ignorance, not malice.

- The second article states that The NY commission had Felix's dad and trainer wrap Felix's hands ahead of time as a "mock wrapping" to show to the commission that he understands the particular rules of hand-wrapping in NY.

After reading all three pieces I posted, I would agree that "handwrapgate" was a case of naivety. After all, if there was something fishy going on, one would predict that they would not have agreed to another fight in New York, let alone a fight in New York just two fights after the Hopkins match.
 
The injuries were wildly exaggerated...not really much to dispute there, It's pretty straightforward. He had a busted lip and bruised ribs and that's it.

It's boxing....you don't hit eachother with baseball bats, the insane extent of those injuries could not possibly be brought on by gloved mitts... Dempsey was a little light heavyweight and Willard was the size of David Price...it's not like Dempsey's little ass would fuck him up that bad realistically. Dempsey is the size of a modern middleweight, he isn't out there fucking guys up like that

David Price the pitcher?
 
Meh, his own manager, Dempsey himself and Willard all say otherwise. All of those in that link are second or third hand stories.
meh, his manager apparently lied about how he did it then as the makers of the product he claimed to use stated the product wouldn't work in that manner, and the steps he claimed to have gone through, were later proven to be pointless and would have almost surely have damaged dempsey's hands as well.
99% of the news we get is second and third hand, do you deem all news in papers, tv, websites, etc, to be unbelievable on account of that? If you did not read the article I linked earlier on this subject, and it seems as though you may not have, maybe give it minutes someday

According to Kearns this is how he loaded Dempsey’s gloves, “I quickly wound on Dempsey’s bandages under Moynahan’s vigilant inspection. After I finished with the wrappings I turned to Jimmy DeForest, my trainer, and pointed to the water bucket. “Give me that sponge well soaked with water”, I ordered, “I want to keep the kids hands cool.” The sponge, dripping with water, made a sloshing sound as I clamped it to the bandages on Dempsey’s hands. In a moment they were drenched through. “Now the talcum powder,” I directed DeForest, and he passed me the innocent looking can. I sprinkled the contents heavily over the bandages.” Moyhanan made no comment. Dempsey, who was entirely innocent of what had happened, stood there in almost a stupor. I had to smile as a call came to enter the ring.”

That is how Kearns said he loaded Dempsey’s gloves without the fighter knowing anything about it. But is such a thing possible? One must first ask is it possible for Dempsey to have entered into the ring without gloves, which the film and still photos clearly prove, and the referee and principles not noticing the hardening substance on his hand wraps? More importantly is plaster of paris a good and efficient way to load a pair of gloves?

Boxing Illustrated conducted an experiment to test whether it was possible to use plaster of paris successfully under fighting conditions. The results were reported in the May 1964 issue of BI, pp 20-24, 66. Hugh Benbow and Perry Payne (manager and trainer of Cleveland Williams) used plaster of paris on Cleveland's hands and reenacted what Kearns said occurred in Dempsey's dressing room. After 35 minutes of toasting to reenact the 114-degree heat of Toledo that day, Cleveland Williams hit the heavy bag five times. Benbow examined the wraps and found that the plaster had cracked and crumbled. "This stuff." said Cleve, "wouldn't do anybody any good."

The Boxing Illustrated test proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the plaster of paris would not have held up after the first punch, it would have crumbled and left chunks in his mitts and every punch thereafter would have been quite painful and there is little doubt he would have broken his hands. The inventor of the product issued a statement as to the impossibility of using plaster of paris without breaking all the bones in the hands. Dempsey’s hands were not broken and he continued to punch with authority with both hands. This alone dispels the idea that Dempsey’s gloves were loaded with plaster of paris.
 
"The hell are you talking about?"
- I cut and pasted from HBO's account of the fight.

"Tito was never a 160lber by any means & we know how far up Hopkins went on to go in weigh."
- Correct. This was only his second fight at middleweight. I am unsure what Hopkins and Trinidad weigh come fight-time. But, for his fight a year before against Echols, Hopkins weighed 166 the night of the fight. During his first fight against Taylor (four years later), Hopkins weighed 168 during the fight. One could imagine that he weighed in the mid-160s during his fight with Trinidad.

As for Felix, he weighed 169 come fight night against Winky Wright in 2005. He weighed 168 on fight night against Mayorga in 2004. Whereas two years before his match with Hopkins, Trinidad weighed 155lbs on fight night against Whitaker. Like Hopkins, one could assume that Trinidad weighed in the mid-160s come fight time with Hopkins. I do not believe that Trinidad was outsized when he fought Hopkins. But, even just 10 pounds is a lot to adjust to.


"there was nothing illegal about the wraps it just wasn’t legal in NY,"
- So, the handwraps were not legal in the state of New York. Since the fight took place in New York, they were not deemed legal for this particular fight.

"your going to argue Robert fucking Garcia who not only debunked this and said he prefers to wrap his fighters this way but actually trained Vargas for the Tito fight."
- The first article I posted clearly states that Naazim Richardson, who first noticed the handwraps in question, should not besmirch' Trinidad's legacy. His opinion is that the wrappings were an issue of ignorance, not malice.

- The second article states that The NY commission had Felix's dad and trainer wrap Felix's hands ahead of time as a "mock wrapping" to show to the commission that he understands the particular rules of hand-wrapping in NY.

After reading all three pieces I posted, I would agree that "handwrapgate" was a case of naivety. After all, if there was something fishy going on, one would predict that they would not have agreed to another fight in New York, let alone a fight in New York just two fights after the Hopkins match.

Richardson is just always trying to start some shit, luckily in he Mosley/Marg fight he happened to hit the lottery with Marg’s gloves.

Hopkins was still a big MW he was 6’1 (taller than Kovalev and Roy jones) his build and structure was pretty big and wide and he was the much bigger man. Tito on the other hand regardless of how much he weighted fight night his belly & back looked like he made weigh eating roasted pork & Corona back in Puerto Rico.

I see your point it’s just people always drag the whole wrap thing with Tito, when trainers have already explained in detail the benefits and debunked false claims when you wrap gauge/tape/gauge/tape
 
meh, his manager apparently lied about how he did it then as the makers of the product he claimed to use stated the product wouldn't work in that manner, and the steps he claimed to have gone through, were later proven to be pointless and would have almost surely have damaged dempsey's hands as well.
99% of the news we get is second and third hand, do you deem all news in papers, tv, websites, etc, to be unbelievable on account of that? If you did not read the article I linked earlier on this subject, and it seems as though you may not have, maybe give it minutes someday

According to Kearns this is how he loaded Dempsey’s gloves, “I quickly wound on Dempsey’s bandages under Moynahan’s vigilant inspection. After I finished with the wrappings I turned to Jimmy DeForest, my trainer, and pointed to the water bucket. “Give me that sponge well soaked with water”, I ordered, “I want to keep the kids hands cool.” The sponge, dripping with water, made a sloshing sound as I clamped it to the bandages on Dempsey’s hands. In a moment they were drenched through. “Now the talcum powder,” I directed DeForest, and he passed me the innocent looking can. I sprinkled the contents heavily over the bandages.” Moyhanan made no comment. Dempsey, who was entirely innocent of what had happened, stood there in almost a stupor. I had to smile as a call came to enter the ring.”

That is how Kearns said he loaded Dempsey’s gloves without the fighter knowing anything about it. But is such a thing possible? One must first ask is it possible for Dempsey to have entered into the ring without gloves, which the film and still photos clearly prove, and the referee and principles not noticing the hardening substance on his hand wraps? More importantly is plaster of paris a good and efficient way to load a pair of gloves?

Boxing Illustrated conducted an experiment to test whether it was possible to use plaster of paris successfully under fighting conditions. The results were reported in the May 1964 issue of BI, pp 20-24, 66. Hugh Benbow and Perry Payne (manager and trainer of Cleveland Williams) used plaster of paris on Cleveland's hands and reenacted what Kearns said occurred in Dempsey's dressing room. After 35 minutes of toasting to reenact the 114-degree heat of Toledo that day, Cleveland Williams hit the heavy bag five times. Benbow examined the wraps and found that the plaster had cracked and crumbled. "This stuff." said Cleve, "wouldn't do anybody any good."

The Boxing Illustrated test proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the plaster of paris would not have held up after the first punch, it would have crumbled and left chunks in his mitts and every punch thereafter would have been quite painful and there is little doubt he would have broken his hands. The inventor of the product issued a statement as to the impossibility of using plaster of paris without breaking all the bones in the hands. Dempsey’s hands were not broken and he continued to punch with authority with both hands. This alone dispels the idea that Dempsey’s gloves were loaded with plaster of paris.
Just sounds to me like you're accepting one unproven story while I believe another.
What does Kearns earn by saying he loaded Dempseys gloves? Why did Willard not fight again for 5 years? Why did Dempsey claim he broke Willards face? Just watch the fight, even if he weren't using POP in his gloves, he was hitting him clean over and over with 5 ounce gloves. You can see the damage on the guy's face, even in the grainy footage of the fight.

Also, Plaster of paris doesn't dry in gloves the way I've heard that its used. Its used to add weight because it absorbs and holds water. Thats why it can be so hard to detect, because the sweat of the fight keeps it from drying.
 
BTW, I didn't mean to imply Dempsey knew his gloves were loaded. According to Kearns, he didn't know. Not sure what Kearns would gain by making up such a story.
Yeah no to be clear i don't disagree there...he might have had some shit in those gloves. He absolutely demolished Willard with every clean shot.

It looked like he was hopped up on coke or something but if i fought someone that humongous I'd be throwing fuckin bombs too haha

David Price the pitcher?
I'd like to see them trade that puke out of here...
 
Just sounds to me like you're accepting one unproven story while I believe another.
What does Kearns earn by saying he loaded Dempseys gloves? Why did Willard not fight again for 5 years? Why did Dempsey claim he broke Willards face? Just watch the fight, even if he weren't using POP in his gloves, he was hitting him clean over and over with 5 ounce gloves. You can see the damage on the guy's face, even in the grainy footage of the fight.

Also, Plaster of paris doesn't dry in gloves the way I've heard that its used. Its used to add weight because it absorbs and holds water. Thats why it can be so hard to detect, because the sweat of the fight keeps it from drying.
I must agree that we are debating 2 unproven theories, with varying amounts of circumstantial evidence, I am of the opinion mine likely trumps yours, and im sure you feel the same of yours. I do appreciate your willingness to debate in a respectful manner and not with things like "...well, your mom is ugly & I'll beat you up and screw your dog..." you know, that sorta thing. I try to remember, yet always forget, that an Internet forum is one of the least likely places in the world where someone is going to change an opinion held by another strictly through writing. Now then, as to your somewhat rhetorical sounding question regarding why Willard didn't fight again for 5 yrs after losing to Dempsey, the inference seemingly being that it took the majority of those 5 yrs to heal from the injuries some believe he sustained. There's a few issues with this specific opinion and any other beliefs or theories that stem from it. It wasn't 5 yrs. It was actually 3 yrs 10 months before Willard stepped in another ring. I imagine some will say "oh, big deal, it's close enough to 5 yrs..." and it is close...Buuuuuut, of course there's a but, right? Anyhow, here's the but. Willard defeated Jack Johnson on April 5, 1915. His next fight, which was also his first defense of the HW title was on March 25, 1916, just short of being a full calendar yr, the challenger was Frank Moran. After defeating Moran, 3 yrs, 3 months, and 10 days passed before Willard fought again, a title defense against a fighter named William Harrison Dempsey, better known as Jack Dempsey. So what would have caused Willard to not fight for the 3 yrs and 3 months between the Moran fight and the Dempsey fight? via boxrec there's this: Willard explained his failure to kayo Moran by saying he had broken all the bones in his right hand in the third round, but Dr. Lewis Morris examined the champion after the bout and said Willard had a slight fracture of the joint of his right index finger." Which, sounds bullshit to me. I think a much more likely reason is the following quote from Willard, given in regards to his feelings of the sport after an opponent he ko'd died the following day of cerebral hemorrhaging. "...'He never enjoyed boxing to begin with but now "I hated it as I never hated a thing previously."' I just think that if there is any one specific thing that kept Willard away from fighting during these two periods mentioned it would be a lack of desire to be a fighter, or it may be better to say the conflicting feelings he had regarding being a fighter.

Side note: Aren't those gloves seen in professional boxing's early era just looking near pointless? They usually look to be more suited as oven mitts than protecting a hand from injury
 
Yeah the lengths of Williard's injuries were highly exaggerated, the stories of cheating of any kind in that fight have largely been debunked at this point. Dempsey just whooped an old, fat man's ass but it was hardly the mythical deadly type beating it has been made out to be.
 
I know I'll get shit for this but I'm not convinced that Margs loaded his gloves against Cotto. Sorry I just don't think there's enough evidence to say he did it b/c Cotto took terrible punishment. That was a tough style fight for Cotto and they both put brutal beatings on each other that night.

I'm not saying that Margarito didn't cheat (he very well could have, and there's probably a better chance he did than didn't), but I'm also not 100% convinced that he did, either.

Dempsey never cheated against Willard. The plaster of paris theory has been debunked, Kearns was salty b/c he and Jack left on bad terms and he just made the whole thing up years later. Iirc he actually wrapped or at least gloved Dempsey's hands up in the ring, so that makes the story bullshit to start with since he said he originally did it in the dressing room, I think.

Willard was was old, coming off retirement and fighting an atg who by all accounts was a savage puncher. Plus the details of Willard's injuries were exaggerated to a pretty lengthy extent, iirc, as well.

As for Cano, he is a notorious cutter, has that wet paper skin. He routinely has that scar tissue opened up and it makes it look like he is an extra in a horror movie. Also even an old Morales was miles more talented than Cano will ever be and that beating was bound to happen and look even worse b/c of Cano's tendency to cut and show damage easier than most.
how_naive_are_you-tw.jpg
 


10 rounds of journeyman with loaded gloves vs prospect

The culprit got 3 years for assault with a deadly weapon.
 
Yeah no to be clear i don't disagree there...he might have had some shit in those gloves. He absolutely demolished Willard with every clean shot.

It looked like he was hopped up on coke or something but if i fought someone that humongous I'd be throwing fuckin bombs too haha


I'd like to see them trade that puke out of here...
Why do you dislike him so much? I used to always read all the rumors when he first started, but I think he grew on a lot of sox fans. This new GM is trying to clean everyone out. This is what pisses me off about these big shot GM’s that get contracted coming in promising better work than the previous one and just start trading away good players we become attached to like they’re fucking Pokemon cards!
 
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