Fighting on PEDs be considered an equivalent to bringing a weapon in court? NO, Murder charges drop

[tramendous]

This guy would test positive for ALL steroids....... twice.

but would captain america?

 

[Deleted member 220895]

I hear if you're a fighter on PEDs you need to go down to the court house and register yourself as a weapon.

 

[NoneChuck]

Antonio "Hands of Plaster" Margarito.

His win against Cotto was epic and would be regarded as one of the best single wins in the recent era of boxing if it wasn't for this controversy.



It was like something out of a Hollywood movie except that the winner was the villain

Didn't he try that shit against Mosley too?

Sneaky cheating bastards

 

[The Best JG]

Stupid ass name Leeroy Jenkins, dumb ass noob carebear pulls some shit and everyone thinks its hilarious, fuck off bad gamers

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

its the intent. if you willfully cheated so that you can cause more harm to the individual where the rules, regulations and expectations are set under the notion that both fighters are clean and tested, then you can be criminally responsible. in hockey body checking is allowed. but if you tamper with your equipment so that you cause more damage via a body check and you hide said tampering then that is a crime if you end up killing someone. in a sport like mixed martial arts where causing damage and hurting your opponent is the primary means of winning, taking steroids illegally means you are criminally negligent in that person's death.

i think the bigger question would be how does the prosecution prove that the person took the banned substance on purpose since its possible to take it accidentally or unknowingly.

But did somebody cheat to cause more harm? or simply to win? So even that assumption that somebody took steroids to cause harm is BS.


I don't know much about hockey but if you tamper you equipment to specifically cause more damage, then it's much different than roids.


PEDs could be explained as a way for somebody to recover from injuries, lots of way where the objective isn't to cause more damage.


It's much harder to prove the intent, to prove PEDs were even a factor in somebody dying....Again you can measure the damage of a hammer or something. You can't measure the damage of PEDs.

 

[Hi-Tech]

Didn't he try that shit against Mosley too?

Sneaky cheating bastards

He was caught against Mosley. There's no proof that he used anything in his other fights but the controversy is there. Cotto did look as if he was beaten with bricks. Margarito derailed his career big time, he looked like a broken man after that fight.

 

[dim_]

First of all you can't measure how much PEDs help

actually you can. theres tons of studies where participants have been monitored over a period of time, then administered with say EPO, and then monitored continuously afterwards and performance gains measured.

Im amazed Luke Thomas is finding the time to create all these sherdog accounts.

 

[tramendous]

But did somebody cheat to cause more harm? or simply to win? So even that assumption that somebody took steroids to cause harm is BS.


I don't know much about hockey but if you tamper you equipment to specifically cause more damage, then it's much different than roids.

the objective is to cause harm. both fighters train hard naturally to increase the chances of causing harm to win. however such harm is controlled by the doctors that are present, the referee, the equipment (gloves mouth piece). a final control is making the use of banned substances illegal in anyway shape or form unless given an exemption. this last but crucial control however is reliant on good faith from the fighters and their team and also random drug tests which can be bypassed.

PEDs could be explained as a way for somebody to recover from injuries, lots of way where the objective isn't to cause more damage.

all fighters are to disclose their injuries and not take banned substances. either way you look at it, there is a strong argument that the person is criminally negligent. like the example of the drunk driver who simply drank to have a good time and then decided to get in a car thinking he could get away with it. if he kills somebody, he is criminally negligent.

It's much harder to prove the intent, to prove PEDs were even a factor in somebody dying....Again you can measure the damage of a hammer or something. You can't measure the damage of PEDs.

well the intent does not need to be to kill to be criminally negligent. if the intent is that this hidden illegal substance will let you win a competition where the objective is to cause controlled harm, you are criminally negligent.

like i stated before though. the difficulty lies in proving that the person didn't take it unknowingly. its difficult to notice you have a banned substance in your body unless you knew you took it.

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

actually you can. theres tons of studies where participants have been monitored over a period of time, then administered with say EPO, and then monitored continuously afterwards and performance gains measured.

Im amazed Luke Thomas is finding the time to create all these sherdog accounts.

No you can't.

I know there is studies for strength gains/muscle gain/Running gains. There isn't any for MMA, or how much harder you will hit, or how much quicker your hands would be.

So you can't say how much steroids will actually help you in MMA...There is no quantitative evidence that shows how much it increases your power etc.

So there is no quantitative evidence, is outrageous to say that a death to a PED fighter should be considered murder, since you cant show PEDs were the direct cause.

Not to mention the history of MMA fighting under PED abuse has produced one single death.

So no, it would be hard to prove.

 

[tramendous]

No you can't.

I know there is studies for strength gains/muscle gain/Running gains. There isn't any for MMA, or how much harder you will hit, or how much quicker your hands would be.

there surely is for boxing and wrestling i'd imagine. which would be highly relevant.

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

the objective is to cause harm. both fighters train hard naturally to increase the chances of causing harm to win. however such harm is controlled by the doctors that are present, the referee, the equipment (gloves mouth piece). a final control is making the use of banned substances illegal in anyway shape or form unless given an exemption. this last but crucial control however is reliant on good faith from the fighters and their team and also random drug tests which can be bypassed.



all fighters are to disclose their injuries and not take banned substances. either way you look at it, there is a strong argument that the person is criminally negligent. like the example of the drunk driver who simply drank to have a good time and then decided to get in a car thinking he could get away with it. if he kills somebody, he is criminally negligent.



well the intent does not need to be to kill to be criminally negligent. if the intent is that this hidden illegal substance will let you win a competition where the objective is to cause controlled harm, you are criminally negligent.

like i stated before though. the difficulty lies in proving that the person didn't take it unknowingly. its difficult to notice you have a banned substance in your body unless you knew you took it.

The drunk driver is a completely different example. There is studies showing how much drunk driving effects your driving. There is a history of drunk driving killing people.

There is absolutely zero evidence of how much PEDs make you punch harder....Yes you can assume it does, but there is zero evidence about it. There is ZERO history of PEDs actually killing somebody.


You can't equate a person on PEDs as being on the same level as a drunk man driving a 3000+lbs car....One of them is proven to be a danger to live, the other one isn't.

There is no way murder charges would even hold, even if a fighter admitted to doing PEDs on purpose.

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

there surely is for boxing and wrestling i'd imagine. which would be highly relevant.

But there isn't any real study done on it. Of course people get better with steroids, but there is no real numbers showing "A person punching power is increased by 100%". It's really hard to show how much power is increased. Let alone to show that some how steroids make you into a super human which would make you equivalent to a walking baseball bat.

 

[NoneChuck]

He was caught against Mosley. There's no proof that he used anything in his other fights but the controversy is there. Cotto did look as if he was beaten with bricks. Margarito derailed his career big time, he looked like a broken man after that fight.

Yeah i remember all that, Nazeem said bricks fell out his gloves pre bout against Mosley.

Sad to see Cotto like that, he was undefeated till he met Margarito.



Something similair was with Luis Resto and his coach Panama Lewis doi g the same dirty shit. Cant remember the documentary name but its good

 

[dim_]

No you can't.

I know there is studies for strength gains/muscle gain/Running gains. There isn't any for MMA, or how much harder you will hit, or how much quicker your hands would be.

So you can't say how much steroids will actually help you in MMA...There is no quantitative evidence that shows how much it increases your power etc.

So there is no quantitative evidence, is outrageous to say that a death to a PED fighter should be considered murder, since you cant show PEDs were the direct cause.

Not to mention the history of MMA fighting under PED abuse has produced one single death.

So no, it would be hard to prove.

thats not what you said.

You stated that there was no way of doing a study to show if PED's had any benefit.

I pointed out that those studies already exist.


If you want to blow smoke out of your arse and say you were actually talking about a specific ped, in a specific instance, under specific controls, thats up to you.

but thats not what i was responding to


There are countless studies looking at performance benefits of ped's..

havnt you got a podcast to do or something?

 

[Hi-Tech]

Yeah i remember all that, Nazeem said bricks fell out his gloves pre bout against Mosley.

Sad to see Cotto like that, he was undefeated till he met Margarito.

The face off for the rematch was legendary, it was like watching some mafia movie



I wish UFC had face offs like this. The one with Jon Jones and DC was good, they should do it more regularly.

 

[I'mBetterThanYou]

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

thats not what you said.

You stated that there was no way of doing a study to show if PED's had any benefit.

I pointed out that those studies already exist.


If you want to blow smoke out of your arse and say you were actually talking about a specific ped, in a specific instance, under specific controls, thats up to you.

but thats not what i was responding to


There are countless studies looking at performance benefits of ped's..

havnt you got a podcast to do or something?

I was talking about in MMA context.....I never seen a study done on MMA....So no, you can't say "Fighter A punching power improved by 100%" as an example. I know about steroids and i know there is evidence that show it increases muscle nuclei that will benefit somebody for a lifetime.


This is a debate on whether or not, somebody can be charged on court. Simply put there is zero evidence to show somebody taking PED's is equivalent to a walking baseball bat. There simply isn't much evidence to show that PEDs increase leathlity so much that they should be charged with murder.

 

[NoneChuck]

The face off for the rematch was legendary, it was like watching some mafia movie



I wish UFC had face offs like this. The one with Jon Jones and DC was good, they should do it more regularly.

Yeah i know what you mean, hbo. 24/7 also legendary nights etc

Ufc needs to step it up, embedded is not all that.
Got many boxing documentaries and fights on hard drive


Luis Resto vs Billy Collins. They took almost all the padding out of Resto's gloves it was brutal

 

[tramendous]

The drunk driver is a completely different example. There is studies showing how much drunk driving effects your driving. There is a history of drunk driving killing people.

there is plenty of evidence to show that steroids and other PED substances can increase your stamina, strength, pain tolerance and aggression. there is plenty of evidence to show that PEDs can help you overcome natural plateaus and make gains you could not achieve naturally. strength, aggression, more stamina, pain tolerance will all increase your physical abilities when training and using them. 'super-human' is simply a matter of opinion. a super version of you might not be as dangerous as others but its still unnatural and definitely a lot better than your natural self.

There is absolutely zero evidence of how much PEDs make you punch harder....Yes you can assume it does, but there is zero evidence about it. There is ZERO history of PEDs actually killing somebody.

there is plenty of evidence of blunt force trauma killing people. if the banned substances which you took and hid from everyone results in a higher fitness level that compromises the controlled environment of the competition, then you are criminally negligent.

You can't equate a person on PEDs as being on the same level as a drunk man driving a 3000+lbs car....One of them is proven to be a danger to live, the other one isn't.

i think its safe to say that we would all be rather hit repeatedly by a natural athlete when all else is equal than the same athlete secretly being on performance enhancing drugs. i'd rather have natty brock trying to hold me down and beat me to a pulp than PED brock. you can't reasonably say that a PED fighter is less able or equally able as a natural version of himself.

There is no way murder charges would even hold, even if a fighter admitted to doing PEDs on purpose.

sure it can. depends on the substance. whether he has done and been caught for it before and if hes on camera saying im going to destroy him, im going to kill him that might be enough to convince the jury/judge. its not a surefire guilty conviction but it can be a competitive trial.

 

[Leroy Jenkins]

there is plenty of evidence to show that steroids and other PED substances can increase your stamina, strength, pain tolerance and aggression. there is plenty of evidence to show that PEDs can help you overcome natural plateaus and make gains you could not achieve naturally. strength, aggression, more stamina, pain tolerance will all increase your physical abilities when training and using them. 'super-human' is simply a matter of opinion. a super version of you might not be as dangerous as others but its still unnatural and definitely a lot better than your natural self.



there is plenty of evidence of blunt force trauma killing people. if the banned substances which you took and hid from everyone results in a higher fitness level that compromises the controlled environment of the competition, then you are criminally negligent.




i think its safe to say that we would all be rather hit repeatedly by a natural athlete when all else is equal than the same athlete secretly being on performance enhancing drugs. i'd rather have natty brock trying to hold me down and beat me to a pulp than PED brock. you can't reasonably say that a PED fighter is less able or equally able as a natural version of himself.



sure it can. depends on the substance. whether he has done and been caught for it before and if hes on camera saying im going to destroy him, im going to kill him that might be enough to convince the jury/judge. its not a surefire guilty conviction but it can be a competitive trial.

There is evidence about that, but there isn't actual evidence that shows "It increases punch power by 50%". The Super Human arguement matters alot, since it can't be shown that a person taking PEDs is so much better that a death should be equivalent the same as bringing a bat.

Again, you can't show how much power a person increased, there isn't a study that measures a person power increase to have an idea how much an average fighter power will increased. Yes it resulted in higher fitness but so it has for other MMA fighters on steroids, yet they never killed anybody. So again you can blame the PEDs....it was simply an freak accident.


I mentioned Brock/Bob Sapp in the OP, since they are clearly the extreme of PEDs, obvious PED abusers...Most MMA fighters don't get close to PED usage as these guys. No doubt in my mind that brock PED helped him in the Hunt fight, the PEDs allow him to keep strength/size which goes hand on hand with his wrestling style, without PEDs he would've lost. Having said that, even in extreme examples like Brock/Bob Sapp, I just don't see how they will be charged with murder, the evidence simply won't be there.

The only reason it would be a competitive trail, is because of the MEDIA ATTN that the prosecutor will try it's hardest to convict, but they will eventually lose. If a fighter had a history of roids, taken a crap load of PEDs, admitted using it on purpose, made a prefight speech of him killing his opponent, even then, he won't be convicted because of next to zero evidence that PEDs were the cause of death.